A small rant & discussion point from me.
We all know it (or at least most):
You enter a dungeon and your dungeonmates have no clue how to be effective teamplayers in a fight. Especially among the dps players just thinking of damage numbers and forgetting the ability of teamsupport through gadgets or be it just not dumb positioning.
So I thought I open a thread where people can ramble over the worst cases of incompetent teammates (anonymous of course…no names) and give personal tips&point of view on what one things are the softskills in a dungeon fight and what can make a fight far easier (like purging & interrupting for a tank or at least carrying the gadgets for it as a dps)
A small rant & discussion point from me.
My biggest pet peeve are actually tanks who so completely forget they’re supposed to be part of a team they don’t pay the slightest bit of attention to positioning bosses in a way that lets melee dps attack effectively (e.g. keeping Hardwired Fleshtank at the edge of a grate where nobody can safely stand behind him, not paying attention to where others are when turning Machine Tyrant (or any other boss that cleaves), or - and I have literally no idea why anyone would even risk that - constantly moving Eblis under the bubble just because).
Tanks like that often make me question why I always bringing an expose, a purge and a utility gadget, particularly given those tanks tend to be fastest to start complaining about the terrible dps
Eblis isn’t supposed to move at all. They may have no idea how to keep him centered when he’s being a butt.
I know I’m not best teammate, my fav thing ever is to attack things first before I realize what’ I’m doing.
But I also would like to runt a bit about one of today dungeons. It was Ankh and it was e1 and it seems like some people just used to speed runs of e1 so people I was with just rushed to every boss without waiting other people. We hadn’t any full-70-red-set people there so it was OK most of the time. Until we get past spider. Somehow there only 4 of us left, 5th person left without a word. And other 3 just ran to Melothat 1. without letting me to check in into anima well, 2. without letting me open blue chest, 3. without letting me change my build because I was with melee weapon before and no way I’m going against colossus with that. And this boss just auto teleport you to bridge when someone is there. And they didn’t make it with just 3 of them so I hope it taught them something… They sure waited a bit before going in 2nd time. When I had the same situation with full-70-red-set person I could at least just follow quietly allowing them do all work - they shouldn’t mind acting like that at least.
Oh, and as a melee I can agree about tanks not caring but thanks rng I barely meet those.
To be fair, I have seen three instances of the fight where the position/movement of the ground circles of death was so weird that shifting Eblis slightly away from his initial position was a good idea. Fortunately, each time that had a tank who did exactly that and then stood their ground in a better spot. Goes to prove there’s super attentive tanks, too!
My biggest issue is People doing a vote to retreat before everyone is even dead… Sadly a few times been about to wing a boss, which would of killed it, and then finding my self interrupted by the voteing or draged out of the dungeon.
As a general thing i find ppl who played All roles, or was mentored by someone who did, are best at placing themselves. Both had the tanks who leave No space, but also dps who have forced me to eventually cleave them as they dont give me a way to move fast enough.
During boss farming, do please wait for those who died in the last fight to catch up and open the chest, before voting retreat.
That is all. For now.
Welcome to dungeons in
shared world RPGs MMOs. Been that way since the beginning of time.
Mostly it’s dps spacing themselves out evenly on DW3, HR5. Different reasons (DW3 you need to stand on the tank so tank can grab adds as they spawn on players, HR5 you need to avoid the tank cause her regular attack is a chain) but same result, someone dies. I don’t really blame people for getting moted on Ankh anymore, they broke the boss’s patterns.
You teach the ones that can. Mock and deride the ones that can’t be taught.
Ground circles are set. They never move differently. Your movement is also constant. You don’t even need to see circles (use Blizzard + Wings and you won’t, good test if you are fit for that boss). Eblis should be at one place, sometime he runs away. The only proper way is just do the same movement as always. He comes back. If tank or any DPS goes after them, let them die. If that leads to your death, try again.
if you don’t feel like teaching them, all it takes is one competent tank anyway. Good ones need almost no support really. Very few fights requires group support, but all you need is one another person to do the occasional support job (with only one exception). Since tank does most job here, he picks the group. From that point it should be almost impossible to run without all gadgets needed really as tank start with picking one to four people he trusts. Then he pugs the rest. Almost never it mattered who you get.
But if it still does, then tank just appoints anyone by name to pick whatever he needs. Any DPS will do since all support needed really requires like blue gadget or green weapon. It’s same in RL. If you need something done you never start with “could someone…”. If that fails, retreat, no emotions needed.
It’s tank reputation at stake if he requires like second interrupt on HR1 or HE6 without good excuse. Might not grab good DPS next time that easily. But aside that it’s pure tactical decision. So pick someone who can stay alive and/or is on the bottom of DPS anyway. If tank screw this, he wastes same time like everyone else, it’s not he and others. In the end it’s how good all are together. Use what you have.
then they might be actually right. As someone whos core build relies on Vali and both weapons loose their main premise I can still do enough damage for everything in the game. Same with others, they pick their green secondary, they loose damage but they are still very formidable DPS. So, if you do half DPS you should, it’s not because you have cleanse, or purge, or expose, or “bad weapons” (no such thing).
You can be the nice DPS that takes cleanse and purges and still do 12k with 1k IP. That way more then one tank will be picking you with them, nobody will complain really, and you won’t need to face MT or Flashtank… well, with face… ever again.
never met “tank” doing that. Only people in training, panicking about not making it in time, jumping through cleave bosses and such. But if you persist with your melee you will learn how to understand your tank. Each is unique, might take few tries to learn what to expect. But you will. Even cleaves won’t be lethal most times. You can hit HR3 being at any position really. But if tank’s initial tactics fails just asking for a change always worked. Just keep it simple.
As for Ankh5 (Melothat bridge), learn it as melee. It’s easier then it seems. If you have problems, target yourself (F1), target Melothat and be sure the circles under your feet never touch. There is really a lot of room to work with, weapon range is large. It’s mostly ranged people who trigger him.
Well, I would they are not that broken, very predictable, very avoidable. But it rarely matters. If tank survives one DPS kills the boss. When more then 6 motes are grabbed during that fight, it’s kinda worth a comment
Only note I’d add is when he stands up at the 2nd gate he lurches forward pretty far, so when he’s standing up you should back off at least to the limit of your range. Doesn’t really affect dps much to skip a couple basics and be safe.
As a note for this, i can highly recommend making use of story mode to train this. You won’t have to deal with the fear of messing a full team up if you misstep, plus you get multiple tries in a fight as it doesnt kill you. Story mode is generally a nice place to train mechanics that would otherwise kill you. Currently dancing with Machine Tyrant myself =P.
Melonhat is a bit of a PITA if you’re melee and your connection is less than stellar.
Thanks for advice but I’d still prefer to be able to change my build to ranged and do it easier way. I never told it’s impossible to do it with melee (after all I decided to rather switch after trying more than one time, I prefer be more effective, not struggling especially when I know I’m not in good form atm) and just talking that I’m not feeling like helping people with certain attitude and inattentiveness most of the time.
And speaking of tanks I also never told I can’t do anything you just wrote but let’s pretend it’s advices for everyone, and just quoting me.
Most often I notice exactly the opposite, dps who don’t care about their numbers, and do half the minimal dps they are supposed to do, are the ones who don’t care about teamsupport as well ( or don’t know how to do it). It is usually one of the best dps the one who offers to help out.
I think it is only seldom a matter of willing, it is much more often a matter of knowledge as people simply do not even understand what you are asking for.
Also while most times team help is not mandatory ( I know a very good tank who sustains, interrupts, self cleanses and team heals all HE up to E8 and HR 4-6 too ! But thats much more a self challenge then a needing ofc ), for tanks having a free slot some times is very handy and safer (usually lets you sustain with 4 CDs instead then 3 or slot an AoE skill to better manage adds or a second interrupt). For a dps the only really usefull gadget is a red Vali, and if you are using it probably you are already doing more then enough dps, so yes, people should really learn how to use gadgets and help out the team when needed.
As someone already said above, playing the 3 roles helps a ton in better understanding what is needed and when it is needed, but even if you only play one role you can learn by observing mechanics and listening to advices.
Boss positioning is tank resonsability ofc but I would like to point out that in HR6 MT fight if you dps die out of a cleave its not the tank moving the boss into you, its you that are in the tank way. Tank must move the boss quickly as soon as a well spawns and its dps responsability to get out of his way ! Best tanks dont move the boss untill they need to and when they need they start moving him slowly, but it is still dps that should undersand in advance where he is going to go.
I am very curious how they manage all that, especially this part!
she is lurking around these forums, she will answer if she feels to but basically team needs very little heals if your cleanses are well timed, and people can self heal some too.
Forgot to say that high team dps and quick boss burning helps too
Reconstituting Shells (the part about “self cleanse” is the giveaway)
You’ve made it sound like it is actually possible to have heal tanks like in TSW
Ofc. when there is party cleanse then no other heals are required. Self healing is pretty strong here to pull you through almost anything.
Speaking of HR6… as melee I kinda need cooperative tank there DPS req. are extreme, can’t afford to loose much by safe running around just because red or yellow circles are out. So while managing red circle I’m running from side to side of boss just outside the cleave. An unannounced movement could lead to no win situation (ofc. I’m aware tank’s circle and his need to go to well in time and moving accordingly).
But there are few things tanks can do to make the fight easier:
if U-turn is needed, there is always time to do one step in the direction, wait for 0.5sec and continue. Just like dancing you know. Letting others know the intentions. (It’s good habit to have, using it on other bosses.)
tanking boss in the corner/side is always dangerous. Circles will spawn, the need for quick turn happens, long way to well. If the boss is turned and moved away from corner/side before the next well spawns there is much more room for manipulation, evading (and showing tanks intentions)
the same comes with the center well. Moving boss slightly further helps determine and prepare for yellow phase (like not being killed by wrong DOT and having some space for managing red circle while inside yellows). Instead of just getting first yellow layer out of nowhere