The modifier doesn’t have anything to do with them being thralls. Its a side effect. Those modifers are so that NPCs such as Votaries and Forgotten Tribe can be quite a bit more threatening than Exiles and such.

In conversations I’ve had during testing I actually asked why they could remove or set all modifiers to 1.0 and the reason behind this was it would make harder areas too easy and easy areas to hard. There is a desire to remove this, but it would take an extensive amount of effort to pull off.

They did something similar with pets if you all remember. But that was a bit more simple. To explain why, the damage pets do comes from internal ‘weapons’. Pets don’t have a ‘damage’ stat. They have the hidden modifiers too (they are actually all set to 1.0, thankfully, or at least to my knowledge from when I last checked, might be some outliers). The hidden weapons are what give them their combos and unique attacks. When they die, these weapons disappear. You also cannot see them when you view their follower windows. There used to be a bug where they’d randomly appear as little bags.

So the change was to make two sets of weapons one for wild NPCs and one for tamed. So when you tame a Wolf for example, it gets a different weapon than when it had before. Its also why Pets got hosed when this change went through, they literally blanket changed (somewhat) to get the update out. They were supposed to go back and readjust these values. And while its not hard, its still a time consuming process. Hopefully they can return to that.

But now thralls, these are different since both NPCs and Followers use the same method. Its an equippable weapon x the modifier = damage. With Followers adding their attribute bonus (wild thralls have 0 attributes) and follower damage and athority bonuses from their owner.

The method to fix this is pretty easy. Just even more time consuming than editing weapon values like for Pets. Its to change the templates that Followers use when tamed to all use a 1.0 modifier. The problem that makes this worse, is there isn’t a singular template that gives them all of their modifier its from their tribe, their tier, and if they are a special thrall like named. There’s at least 3 sources if not more that add it together. Xevyr has done a great job putting together a spreadsheet that shows these all added up in something easy to read. Its an absolute mess in the devkit from my experience. (also I don’t remember if the templates are additive or multiplitive, I think they’re additive, but I don’t remember since its been a long time since I made a NPC, last time I did we still had Witch Doctor feats)

So they’d have to basically zero out all of these modifiers and then choose one template (I’d assume the basic human template) to have the basic 1.0 modifier, and then select like… a wild NPC template with different tiers to add too it. Then when the thralls are tamed, the wild template is removed.

Then after that they’d need to adjust how attributes add to damage to make up the difference.

Seems simple, and well it kinda is. But with the number of templates and NPCs available, its a task that would take a pretty dang long time. And like I said, I do think they want to do this, the issue is one of time. The person making these changes wouldn’t be making changes in other important aspects.

So I wouldn’t rule it out that we wouldn’t see these things done. But the question is ‘when’ and ‘when’ can be a long time coming. And well has been, since these conversations I mentioned go back over a year or so. But you never know. I’ve seen stuff get added to the game that were said would take too long to implement or too ‘crazy’ just get added in some random chapter update. When FC says no sometimes, they don’t always mean it.

Sometimes asking for the world gets you the world. If of course its possible. And something that is datatable edits for the most part, is definitely possible. Personally I would love to see a mod handle this to see a proof of concept. I believe its theoretically possible. Its just that… its a bit of work. And I have considered trying it, but damn do I not have a great workflow when it comes to working all that out. So its a bit daunting for me. Its harder for me than it would be for FC (or any modder who routinely works on that stuff) I’m sure.

This is the basic problem here in this forum.
Feedback from each individual should be respected!
I am not saying that i don’t do this mistake from times to times too, but i try to avoid doing it the best i can.
Say what you believe, it doesn’t matter who (player) agree or disagree, zero importance!
The game should provide fun, good times. If it doesn’t, point it, end of story. It’s feedback after all.

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However, it’s always dangerous to apply our standards to those we imagine other people have. I have a twin brother. We’re false twins. He never cared much about gaming. He is the casual, low skilled gamer who plays on weekends.
I can guarantee you are a freaking ace compared to him. You would look like a true pro.

Times had changed.
Back in the 80s and 90s we had these arcade machines and most games on home computers were ports of these games. And these games were designed to be hard.
So there was simple division, there were gamers, and there were the ones who did not game, as it was too hard for them, frustrating or just non their thing.
But the word ‘gamer’ described someone with a skill, who was constantly improving these skills to beat the new games. There were no girl gamers (trollface) in these ancient times, as there was no Sims, and no Unicorn game. There was Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Final Fight, Double Dragon, Golden Axe, hard shooters, fast racers, difficult platformers, demanding strategy games. All these games were never fully completed by 99% of those who attempted to play them. Only the few could brag I have beaten 10th boss in X…

There was a learning curve, you had to become good, practise, learn.
There was a mountain to climb.
New games are no longer like that.

Now (especially) aging games like Conan are being redesigned by the studios to be inclusive for casual players, they want the game to be most accessible so anyone can come here, play the game, buy crap from Bazaar = goal has been reached, we got the money. They want to milk the most from the game before it dies.

The question here is that if I were to apply my standards to the game, most of you would be royally fkd.
Sometimes, good players have it hard when evaluating the difficulty of others. You think you suck at combat, but probably you are well above the average. So, it’s risky if you decide to tweak the game to your standards and assume you won’t harm the fun of others.
Where does that leave us? There has to be some sort if compromise, right?

No?

I don’t care about others, I paid for the game, it always has been easy as you noticed, but 3 years ago it was acceptable, while today it’s turned into boring garbage.
I have my base at Godsclaw and for years I used to ride my horse from camp to camp and fight these NPCs there, just for fun and to relax after work.
Guess what, now when you enter the camp they cant see you anymore…

Anyway it is what it is, I stopped coming to this forum as I gave up on this game.
That new poll they posted on FB made me return to see if anything is about to change.

Why other games don’t have this kind of problems?
Because other games have noob river for noobs, desert for intermediate to advanced players, and north for those in the endgame stage, looking for challenge and glory.

In Conan devs for some reason decided that endgame area must be easily accessible for noobs and the game must be clearable in a week maximum.
Just make these biomes designed from the most easy one to the hardest one - and redesign NPCs there accordingly.
As at this moment the endgame area challenges are just temperatures - I am going to the frosty place, I need to cook some chili desert style. Today I’m going to the volcano, must remember to pick up some ice on the way…

They need to blow up that chaos, sit and look at the map, and redesign challenge levels from scratch.
Again, what I had said on this forum multiple times - look at MMOs, they can cater in the same game both to the esports players and to those who barely can operate mouse and keyboard at the same time.

Or even games like Diablo, you enter the dungeon on level 1 and fight stupid skeletons, you go deeper and see some monsters, finally demons and sorcerers casting missiles… it becomes more difficult with every level, last level is hard, but still the game is newbie friendly, exciting and fun.

Let’s not fantasize about our expectations, let’s make Funcom design this game properly, which does not mean that any of us gets excluded. Make each biome more difficult the further it is from noob river.

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Dude, that’s the game as I would like it, but I don’t mind if others need thralls to beat it. I like hard games, exactly because my passion for videogames started early. The money I wasted on arcade parlors! :smile:
But if it is possible to give a crutch to those less gifted, why not? That’s where I think differently from you. I like inclusive games, because it’s a wonderful hobby I love to share., @Noqturn .

You know when I had the most fun in this game? Playing crazy challenges with @stelagel , the best Conan player I know. You want it hard? Talk with him. He’ll find something that will get your blood pumping. Or play pvp. Go alone harrass alphas and fight until you drop. I did that for a while, more because I was out of options. It was a blast! You’ll not only lose, but you’ll gain their respect in the process. :smile:

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There we go…
I invite anyone who is struggling with their thralls to give a quick look at this guide I typed up today :slight_smile:

Maybe it will help :man_shrugging:

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Fantastic guide, @Xevyr .

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I read it all, and yeah, it’s basically what you’ve said before. And I’m not saying you’re wrong. People should be allowed to have fun in a sandbox game the way they want. I mean, my character in the Exiled Lands is an asthmatic old man (full corruption build), so I pretty much need thralls to fight for me. I contribute as much as I can with my wimpy stats, but it’s the meatshield that does the heavy lifting. My Siptah character is a physical peak performer who nags to her “assistants” about slowing her down.

How much stronger should thralls be? Strong enough that the player doesn’t need to contribute anything to the hardest fights in the game? We’ve been there, and players didn’t like it. I can kind of understand that - the actually skilled players would feel that their skills have no significance if any newbie can just point a follower at anything and solve the problem that way. It would also discourage less skilled players from learning, and that is something I would not want to see, ever, anywhere.

Do keep in mind that I don’t really have a personal horse in this race. I can always adjust my SP settings to suit my needs. All I’m trying to say is that the baseline should be somewhere that is useful, but doesn’t make the player redundant. Apparently inding that level is difficult.

I’m a guy who played Witcher 3 at the absolute lowest difficulty and still struggled with some boss fights. If I’m well above average at fighting in Conan Exiles, then, with all due respect, people need to try harder.

I’m not really asking the game to be difficult. I like a mild challenge, but hate needing to retry a fight over and over again.

I know, which is why I’m using myself as a measuring stick, rather than you or @stelagel. Admittedly, butterfingers aside, I do have a well above-average brain, and I’m not afraid to use it to my advantage in games - but that’s where we, experienced players, can help the less experienced ones, to learn how to beat the challenges thrown at us. You probably couldn’t help me with my clumsiness, but you can help me figure out how to win a difficult fight, using the tools I have. Or telling me to get better tools, which may include a thrall.

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Best metaphor ever! :joy::metal:

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Then why were they using those thralls if it was entirely optional? At that time, I was soloing Thag.
Why do players immediately capture the Arena Champion when they found a glitch that allowed them to do so? Because they like weak thralls?
The 'too strong thralks make the game boring" is mostly a myth created by players with vested interests in having weak thralls. Others could always use weaker thralls. I love leveling performers, exiles, etc. Because of the risk. As we speak, I’m leveling a bearer to perfection.
So, it’s a choice. Why should my lack of restrain harm other’s playstyles? That’s my point. I can live with weak thralls or no thralls at all…

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Too many people now days have this view of “if it’s in the game I have to use it”. Conan is a game that provides many different tools to play the game whatever way you want and if you don’t like a tool then you simply don’t use it. Thralls are just another tool and one that is JUST as easy to not use if you don’t like it as say an axe or bow…
Anyone complaining strong thralls “made the game too easy” has clearly forgotten this.

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There are three types of complainers, @Eniguman .The bulk are pvp players who want easier offline raids (bastards!:smile:). Then those who believe human vs human is much more interesting (which I completely agree).
Then a few informed pve players who want a balanced game that forces the player to learn how to deal with weaker thralls. There are a few problems with that approach. First, it excludes low skill players without any need. Then, it ruins diversity, since most thralls are only viable if you spend your time babysitting them. Third, it imposes a type of playstyle to everyone, indiscriminately. I hate having to manually heal thralls at every step when I’m in a dungeon, especially if I’m farming it. It’s excruciating! I end not taking thralls so I can do it faster, without worries…
We should have thralls able to fend for themselves and actually help, instead of burdening us with boring tasks.

It’s not that… a game’s quality factor includes its balance…

Why do you think you have all those PvP players constantly complaining about balance?

Try telling them that if they think bows are OP then they simply shouldn’t use them :slight_smile: See how well that goes… when they’re already taking the extra effort to build in the sky…

The range of tools available is exactly what defines a game… if you can have the best tools and weapons from level 1… why on earth would you struggle with your stone tools and bother to unlock the iron ones? The sandbox nature of the game only goes so far… there are a lot of players who can’t even trust THEMSELVES with the admin panel :slight_smile: they NEED to play on servers where they’re not admins, else they would just cheat…

If you stop thinking about Conan Exiles for a second and imagine going to play a brand new game… idk… say Dune released and you logged in…
They threw all the endgame legendary items and dungeon loot at you and there was nothing left to unlock… your first reaction would be… “Well… that’s dumb…”

Imagine this… we have to dig a giant hole… like a building foundation… and you show up with your little foldable shovel… and I roll in with a 40 tonne excavator… would you still bother shoveling next to me? or would you think that’s kinda pointless?.

So yes… balance and the RANGE of tools available in a game MATTER… even if you have the option not to use them… it’s not really a real option purposely gimping yourself when the rules of the game don’t require it… That’s why everyone goes for the Arena Champion when they can suddenly knock her out… not because they couldn’t play without her…

@Xevyr I know. I know exactly what you are talking about, but I expected Conan to be more inclusive since I don’t find it automatically would reflect on quality, given the optional nature of thralls.
Anyway, this is a dead horse we’re beating. I am much more interested in the other topic, the one of that marvelous guide you just made. :smiling_face:
I just answered you there. Maybe you can find out the answer to what I’m asking. It’s been years without knowing why and I already asked about it a few times.

The problem is that the claim that super thralls wouldn’t be balanced in pvp was already debunked when we had said super thralls and they were STILL considered useless in pvp…
It’s overall not PvPers making the claim that thralls being “too strong” makes the game too easy…

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Well… I’m going to he measured on this because I have stated my feelings in the past on thralls, I lost, and that’s life. People have differing opinions on how important a thrall should be; to me its an alternate toon, so making it weak is no different than any other nerf; just how I feel about it.

HOWEVER, there is a small nit I have to pick with having to use authority to make my thralls better. Not that I want it buffed, but my problem is that when my thrall is not on follow, my allocation of stats for that thrall is not given back to me in some benefit. My least favorite situation has occurred a couple times. I will be at the mounds, get stuck in somewhere with max authority and well trained, and when I die, all benefit to my thrall is lost by the time I get back to try and have them refollow (knowing that their health isnt going to be recovered). Its all moot because a couple cim 3’s are all it takes to trash a solitary thrall even in epic gear. This could be solved by applying the well trained buff to any thrall that was last on follow until I put another on follow.

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That’s a very good suggestion @darthphysicist .

I also think guards on owned terrain should be stronger than followers. That would help a little pvp defense and would allow funcom to safely lower the thrall cap, easing the strain on servers. Less, but better guards. Call it home effect or something… it wouldn’t unbalance adventuring and would help the game overall. I don’t know why funcom chose the opposite…

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Now I only lose thralls occasionally in purges. There the scenario is more or less the same, the purge
base spawns right at my base , the thralls rush there and if one gets cornered and I don’t get there right away it doesn’t matter how strong he is and he just dies because of the stunlock. In that case it almost doesn’t matter if the thrall has 3000 or 6000 HP - his death would just come a little later.
Plus I’ve been looking and in terms of dmg modifiers the t4 thralls from river are pretty good at the moment , even better than the cannibals who got an exaggerated nerf - IMHO unnecessary , before they were OK - yes they had great dmg but little HP .
So for PVE the thralls are pretty OK at the moment in terms of stats (but could be better) and even newbies have access to thralls with decent dmg.
What they need the most would be a simplification of AI , even 20 years old games can handle it better.
It would be enough that when they are attacked they defend themselves , or attack the nearest enemy - simple commands , nothing complicated
Which they should do already but don’t - thralls in combat run from one NPC to another , rush to the middle of the camp even when enemies are closer etc…
In addition, the AI is not optimized for the game load at all , and official servers which should be the standard of the game often only need 5 players on the server ( out of 40 possible) to make the server not keep up and the AI started to drop out.
10 players is already a guarantee that it is a player only game , thralls are no longer worth taking with you - they just stand still, don’t move and teleport to you once every 3 minutes , forget about combat

TLDR - more than buff they need to work on AI and server optimization

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Ditching infinite stunlock would be a good start. A better AI would be the perfect solution. If thralls had a killer AI, 1000 hp would sufice. Players have less than that and can kill everything in the game. But they would have to drink potions automatically.

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GTA 5 would be a great example, much older than CE and released on ps3.
But the AI of npc‘s there are atomic physicists in comparison to thralls. :rofl:

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Even Sea dogs 2, which is a game from… 2003? has better enemy AI.

Ships can take turns to shoot, low HP ones tend to fleet. But the best is: enemies on foot DOES NOT GET STUCK? Get it? They won’t softlock when stepping on a small pebble!!
That tells something about the state of this game…