Nerf dodge, potions and buff attack animations, please!


#1
  • Giving NPC’s and Players quicker attack animation will make it more engaging and dangerious. Just a flat out damage increase or HP increase does not fix the core problem that attack animations are too slow or dodge too powerful.

  • Dodging is too strong! too fast and too furiou… easy to use versus the slow attack animations we have in testlive today. In both PvP and PvE!

  • Attacking most NPC’s are just a 4 attack combo session, followed by their slow attack animation and me pressing dodge, rinse and repeat. There is little to no adrenaline or sense of danger in this survival game at the moment.

  • Nerf potions to the ground, please!!! They’re destroying so much fun in the state they are now.

Love the game, there is sooo much potential! <3

All Hail the Grim Grey God!


#2

I agree with most of what you said.

  • Most combo openers are terrible - these are most of the dmg you are going to get from npcs, and apparently in PvP.
  • I find the balance between fast light armor dodge vs the reduction potential of heavy armors good. You dont have much of an advantage becouse of dodges alone if enemy can take 3 times as many hits.
  • Opinions vary here really. As much as I would love for the difficulty to get ramped up mercilesly I can also acknowledge that Dark Souls pve is easy and boring while other players opinions can differ.
  • The only way to have a fun duel atm is to mutually agree to not use healing items. There should be an animation for eating and drinking that can be punished.

#3

Depends on the player. Do you want to lock out people who wouldnt be able to play this game if it was as challenging as you (and probably a few others) need it to be?

I think making them as worse as one could leave them home as well wont be good for pve. Not everyone actually wants to exploit bosses in order to be able and kill them.
-> black keep boss, that cone will move until the actual damage is being landed, having made it impossible for me to dodge it -> thats 400 or more damage with ~30% reduction. btw: big named elephant hits for at least 550 on 30% reduction. OUCH! (instagibbed me xD)

As people told about feasts, it seems those are even worse than those simple potions.
I think herbal tea-stamina-regeneration isnt working -> wont restore any. Just as good healing though.

My point:
If they nerf potions and all other infight (!) healings down to 1/3 of their current healing, Funcom would be needed to adjust some other things as well. Like eighter tuning the damage from bosses down OR* give them a more clear animation and 20-30% longer animation time. As for the cone I mentioned, the black keep boss shouldnt rotate anymore when he is casting that cone and that alone would already suffice.
(Must have been funny to watch me rolling around him and him rotating with me.)

*That “or” means not to do both. Doing one of both should suffice.
->Thinking of bows there. Completely nerfed to ground until one hits 50 accuracy, making it an unreasonable amount of arrows to carry around for killing off hyenas or else rather weak creatures. Yes, rocknoses and crocodiles seem rather weak to me as well. (Though that cant be applied on their boss-versions.) And probably take 50 arrows or more to kill one of them?
Thats bluntly put at least a double nerf -> damage nerfed (even dragonbone bow+arrow+dmgkit will leave one slightly above a buffed dagger -> 41 dmg on dagger to 42 on bow with both at ~25/30 armorpenetration) plus additional material costs. And I completely forgot about the resource we call “time” it takes an archer to kill something off compared to melee. (even if compared to dagger-wearing assassins, since they often hit twice in one heavy attack animation)

I think it would be nice to add an anti-healing-poison. Set arrow poison should probably switch to that poison as well. Wouldnt that already suffice? (And dont go crying about more material costs. You can still go with non poison as well.) Though I think that poison should eighter stay on weapon for 5-10 minutes OR be replaced by another poison on each hit. (Like people carrying 100 flasks of poison, only attaching that once to their weapon, making that 100 poisoned hits.)

I think the whole reason of that kick should have been to cancel the enemies heavy attack. (Like when we still had to hold/charge a heavy attack and then release it. -> we get kicked and thus wasted our time to charge it.)


#4

Do you want to lock out people who wouldnt be able to play this game if it was as challenging as you (and probably a few others) need it to be?

It’s a broad spectrum of different opinions, I get that. But I think that player satisfaction comes from challanges. I want to feel like I’m surviving, not farming the map. Lategame monsters should require lategame gear to kill. Thats not always the case BECAUSE THE ANIMATIONS ARE TOO SLOW, You can dodge them too easily. It’s like; here comes the smash!.. (A Bear or Frostgiant or the Locus world boss or almost any other NPC) wait for it… are you ready?.. SMASH! :sleeping:

I think making them as worse as one could leave them home as well wont be good for pve. Not everyone actually wants to exploit bosses in order to be able and kill them.

It’s a good point. I remember in Anarchy Online damage was nerfed in PvP. They could do the same but nerf healing in PvP. Make it 30% as effective when in PvP versus 60% in PvE. Because I still think its too strong.

If everything can be done solo, then why make it a multiplayer game? (I understand that people playing on solo servern must have it soloable). but for the rest of us. making things hard will encurage people to work together and wooosh… communities are born!

We are strong together, not alone.

The only way to have a fun duel atm is to mutually agree to not use healing items. There should be an animation for eating and drinking that can be punished.

It’s so true!!! I really like this idea! But they don’t have time to implement that before launch. :frowning:


#5

Well that is a little tricky for myself. I am playing with daggers and tend to lock myself in my animations, rendering myself unable to actually dogde (at least) some attacks. (Meaning not the totally killing ones but smaller yet painful attacks which are faster as well.)
As I click too often, thus the next attack is already started before I can reconsider… for some reason some players seem to be able to cancel their attack, while I can not do so.
Frostgiants could use a speed up though. At least for their bigger attacks (smashes, spins). I have not paid attention to bears. And locust boss? I was told about some weird looking red one, never saw that one myself.
But i.e. that black keep boss should not rotate when casting his cone -> as it was the last time I went to him with someone else, he easily hit me while I kept rolling around him (accidently made him hit said comrade…)… Though that was on easter sunday. And even that boss could use twice the speed. Even more if thinking about movement.

Then here your earlier statement:

Nerfing to the ground would be making them regenerate like 1-10 HP per second with a duration of 5 seconds. While the 10 HP per second isnt that horrible, the 1 HP is.
But if you are talking about nerfing healing to 30% in pvp and 60% in pve, I am completely fine with that. (Also eating should not stack with healing consumable! Maybe healing+drinking should be things which can only be done outfight? Just like bandaging? (I really like that change!))
What about having those healing items healing 20% of lost HP? (If you are at 10% HP, you will regenerate 18% -> you get healed up to 28%?) But if you are at 50% HP, you only regenerate 10%?
What do you think about my anti-healing-poison suggestion?

Also there will always be people who are able to do things solo. It just requires more, and more, and even more skill to archieve that.
Plus you seem to forget there is a Singleplayer option. (On pve servers players tend to group up for dungeons and else anyway.) Sure, people could just go and adjust their dealt damage, but that is not always wanted. A special kind of legendary, most epic thrall for SP only would be neat. Maybe right at start, cruzified near your own starting spot. It should eighter copy the attributes of the player (making it having the same effects) or even better -> have own stats and gets levelups as the player does.


#6

Potions / eating / other forms of healing mainly need a long CD and not be able to stack onto each other. Then they wouldn’t be so bad. Unfortunately the game designers have yet to address this. RIP competitive PVP until they do


#7

I have zero problems with that. You can’t spam buttons and win because you will be locked in… that is a good thing! Also making animations quicker will lock you in for less time, i.e. making combat more “free” flowing. There is a small window of time for movement without loosing your “combo”. You have to learn the rythm. Just like you need good rythm to play piano… you need good rythm in combat too.

Plus you seem to forget there is a Singleplayer option.

" (I understand that people playing on solo servern must have it soloable)." I belive lowering npc/monster dmg for singleplayer campaign to be a good solution.

Potions / eating / other forms of healing mainly need a long CD and not be able to stack onto each other. Then they wouldn’t be so bad.

Yes!

RIP competitive PVP until they do

Yes :frowning:


#8

This ^ It really needs to be done, It doesnt even have to be done in PvE if you guys are worrying about how hard the npcs/bosses will be without healing in its current state.

We just need something to stop the rampant healing in pvp. Or atleast reduce it.
I know joel mentioned something about bleeding to counteract the healing, But good luck getting bleed stacks on someone and then swapping back to a actual weapon, (If you do manage to get the bleed stacks, they are just going to run and untill it stops.)
That is by no means a satisfying melee experience. Atleast not in my eyes.

Suggestions:

1.Make a auto equip new throwing axe, or javelin feature. That way they are actually usable in combat without a godlike aim, or stackable to atleast 3? Which in turn will help the disengaging to heal.

1.1.or Cripple needs to be either more effective, or less effective at lower stacks and longer/stronger at higher stacks.(starting from 3)

2.Healing effects end as soon as you take damage, or block a hit with shield.

3.Some sort of “engaged/flagged” mechanic, Which reduces the effectiveness while in combat flagged state, Which lasts i dunno 30seconds from last time you were hit?

Doubt the last suggestion could possibly be done with the content lock, but the rest are totally do-able as a balance/fix type thing.


#9

Whats up with everyone asking for long cooldown. And some even begging for 4 second or even longer animations…
Cooldowns are MMO-things, I dont think they are good in survival games. Cant you come up with a different solution? Also what exactly is a “long cd”? 30 seconds is already long in such a game. As for PvP even 10 seconds might already be a long time.

When I first started on official testlife with a few people from pve, we encountered some agressive and camping people. (we reached 60 with only ancient stuff and didnt know the new recipe of hardened steel…) And as our armor classes were the same (probably them wearing epic, us not), me and the others getting killed in two to three heavy hits. (Well, we are usually playing pve and switched to some private pve testlive after that…)

For daggers probably a half or maybe a whole second? Also I often only see those heavier attacks slightly after my attack started and then was locked in. This is what I meant.
But as you are talking about “good rythm”.
What about people who are already struggling with northern ghosts?
There are people who arent used to this type of game or simply a little doddery or put bluntly: bad.
Another possiblity: people who unwillingly loose concentration all the time.
-> As all those people might even know this themselfes, they would probably prefer pve or some kind of civilized pvp (i.e. without robbing whole corpse) but with healing almost completely gone, those could be screwed even in certain pve situations.
Even those people like this game but would probably be locked out (of parts of the game) if one rendered infight healing inviable. (Which would be the case with eighter too long cooldowns OR too long animations.)

I think the core problem of infight healing is that it’s too strong. Not too often, but simply too strong. I guess one cannot outdps aloe potions, herbal tea or these omnious feasts. (Havent tried them.) As for pve, it would probably be fine with “only” half of the amount. Maybe even with only a third of that…

Could you describe those “long” battles? What kind of playstyle is sitting behind those fights? Is it full tanks against full/partly tanks? (Like having 40 vitality, wearing heavy armor and eighter some spear/polearm or one handed weapon plus shield.)

Maybe those full tanks simply need a good counter, which would have been people who are specialized in armor penetration. I guess every weapon got adjusted to 9-15% penetration? If even hammers wont have 30% or slightly more (dont forget about the penetration kit!) the idea of tanks is probably another issue for this whole thing being a problem. (An 40 accuracy guy would boost that up yet again: (30+15)*1,5 -> 67% ap)… A squishy target (=light or medium armor) probably (?) isnt able to use healing as efficient as a tank can.

But all that everyone is doing is cutting down the symptoms to archieve potions being pots -> plain decoration, instead of trying to adjust the cause.

You might want to delete potions and all else healing consumables and only allow bandages, as those are working in the way you want potions to work… (Though those arent reduced but rather unusable during combat.)

I honestly think that rendering heavy armor not only with advantages but disadvantages (more than that little jump dodge) as well, plus properly balancing out every armor+weapon setup might already help. (And tuning healing down to 60, 50 or even 35% of their current values might give that the finishing touch?)

I hate the thought of “balancing” being shifting the meta to some else OP combo. I really prefer any combo having a real counter, which is itself countered by some else combo again. The greatest issue with balancing is that people start to cry about something and order the devs to adjust those insanely OP things into nothingness, while other items/things might be flamed for being way too weak.
I think those devs (like at lol) dont really think about “balance” but only pleasing the players, ending up in metas being shifted all the time, while some playstyles might get nerfed into nothingness. I am really sad for that to happen so often.

That being said, every single suggestion about cooldowns or animation would need time before launch… I think its more realistic to have them tune the healed amount down, as that would only be already existing numbers which only need to be lowered…


#10

I really appreciate your points. It’s kind of a hard ask to request animations for potions and food, especially since the developers already kind of ‘finished’ that part of the game. I think you’re right where at the end of your post you say that it’s more realistic for the devs to just balance the numbers at this point.


#11

The problem with potions isn’t that you cant out-DPS them, it’s that potions make running around avoiding being hit for 30 seconds (while you heal) a viable strategy. It’s not fun when right as you’re about to win, your opponent starts to dash around the area, while your sluggish hits can’t connect. Could you imagine that happening in boxing?


#12

That is a fact indeed! People who disagree with that its the ones who prefers the abuse healing playstyle. It doesn’t fit the game at all, it feels exactly like a mmo and CE is a game that should be more barbaric with savage deadly fights than " Paladin vs Shaman" stereotype.


#13

I’d guess anywhere from 20 seconds, 30 seconds, all the way up to 1 minute as a CD, but it would require actual testing and depend on whether or not hitboxes / attack animations are improved to catch people that run. The idea would be you get one major heal or “second chance” per fight unless you manage to get away from an opponent or hide long enough to heal again.

Constantly healing in the background (instantly without any penalty) could be considered an MMO-thing too except in this game it’s laughably unbalanced. Usually MMOs at least attempt to make mechanics like that fair, fun, and interactive. Plenty of people have shared the same feedback. When you don’t die in 2 or 3 hits and start understanding the “healing meta” (if you can call it that) then you’ll see where the complaints come from.

It’s not our fault if it needs time to adapt before launch-- the devs can make time. Or they can release a horribly unbalanced game on May 8th that doesn’t address the most important focus of our feedback and make testlive look like it was just a political publicity stunt.

I admit that players may have been in the wrong with mounts, sorcery, multiple religions, race-exclusive traits or benefits. But we aren’t wrong about healing.


#14

If im not mistaken, I remember seeing a drinking animation with waterskin at 1st person in an early CE trailer.

Why they’re not in the game only FC can answer, but I still hope they will add animations for drink/eat, maybe not for release, but oh well, better late than never, RP community appreciates it.

EDIT: Found the video @TwinCrows --> at 0:39 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLJZw0DGI4


#15

In the last Devstream they said: balancing is an ongoing process in all such games and if there will be things to change in future they could do this when the player want it to do them (assumed it is not gamebreaking) Right now it is essential that the game is stable and ready for release. For me the current state of the game is very good playable. They will still do some changes in combat for release. I am very optimistic.


#16

I can see that without actual pvp though.
Even prior to 40th vitality perk, healing is too strong.
And that is the issue. I have never seen people complain about healing back in live state.
Simply put: healing has become way too strong, and thats it.
And if you deny eating during combat, it will lock out that potion+eating combo.


#17

Renjimaru: Rob are healing values being adjusted/tweaked -inhouse at all? is there any debate on the subject or its not really something on the radar?

@Renjimaru they are constantly being looked at. For example, we’ve removed the (frankly insane) healing from the Feasts
@Renjimaru the intention is also to make potions stop healing once you take damage so it doesn’t turn into a “whomever has the most aloe wins” type of fight. Having said that, last time I implemented that, I broke the game. Because religious reasons. No clue why

^ Win :slight_smile:


Animations for Drinking/Eating
#18

That sounds like a fair solution, as you would have to spam (and waste) tons of potions -> there is a limit to how much one can carry. Though herbal tea wasnt too heavy, or what did those weight?
It still means to waste tons of consumables though.


#19

@Renjimaru the intention is also to make potions stop healing once you take damage so it doesn’t turn into a “whomever has the most aloe wins” type of fight.

That sounds like a fair solution, as you would have to spam (and waste) tons of potions -> there is a limit to how much one can carry.

I don’t agree. It doesn’t remove “the one who carries the most potions wins”. Because you can just re-apply healing after each hit. The one with 100 potions will always win against the one with 20. Yes, it makes it expensive, but doesn’t fix the problem. I think a 20 seconds cooldown or more would be muuuuch better. Like many of you have said before me; please don’t give me this healer vs healer combat. I want barbaric combat, were a spear through my heart can’t be healed in 5 - 10 seconds. :skull_and_crossbones:

  • 20 seconds or more cooldown

  • Reduce healing

  • Remove healing on hit

PvP Saved! :heart_eyes:


#20

There was a time in last stream when joel meantioned daggers but soon after that said he doesnt want to discuss fighting strategies. (He was answering on someone asking about healing being op and how to handle that.)
(Am I really the only one tying those two things together? :thinking: Because with that what Ren spread in that other thread, assuming its no fake, it will completely resolve that issue, making pvp a non-selfhealing-pvp, while pve stays untouched. Skill only needs to make a difference in pvp, but noone should mind different skill in pve.)

As we will lose ANY healing on any kind of damage (at least for bandages that goes for equipping anything and climbing as well), applying a dot (dagger -> bleed; bow+snake arrow -> poison) will supress the enemy’s healing ability. That means you will not only want to play with like spears, polearms or another weapon… But with those other weapons as well.

Going that way and if keeping in mind “heavy” attack of daggers have shorter range in terms of possibly closing a gap than their light combo, but can hit an enemy twice, I would be wary if daggers could become the next generation of OP weapons.
That being said. How do the poisons work we can apply on our weapons? (I never used those.)
They may help as anti-healing as well.

And at least at that point, I would not worry about any else changes to healing - aside of lowering the amount those consumables heal.