This ^ It really needs to be done, It doesnt even have to be done in PvE if you guys are worrying about how hard the npcs/bosses will be without healing in its current state.
We just need something to stop the rampant healing in pvp. Or atleast reduce it.
I know joel mentioned something about bleeding to counteract the healing, But good luck getting bleed stacks on someone and then swapping back to a actual weapon, (If you do manage to get the bleed stacks, they are just going to run and untill it stops.)
That is by no means a satisfying melee experience. Atleast not in my eyes.
1.Make a auto equip new throwing axe, or javelin feature. That way they are actually usable in combat without a godlike aim, or stackable to atleast 3? Which in turn will help the disengaging to heal.
1.1.or Cripple needs to be either more effective, or less effective at lower stacks and longer/stronger at higher stacks.(starting from 3)
2.Healing effects end as soon as you take damage, or block a hit with shield.
3.Some sort of “engaged/flagged” mechanic, Which reduces the effectiveness while in combat flagged state, Which lasts i dunno 30seconds from last time you were hit?
Doubt the last suggestion could possibly be done with the content lock, but the rest are totally do-able as a balance/fix type thing.
Whats up with everyone asking for long cooldown. And some even begging for 4 second or even longer animations…
Cooldowns are MMO-things, I dont think they are good in survival games. Cant you come up with a different solution? Also what exactly is a “long cd”? 30 seconds is already long in such a game. As for PvP even 10 seconds might already be a long time.
When I first started on official testlife with a few people from pve, we encountered some agressive and camping people. (we reached 60 with only ancient stuff and didnt know the new recipe of hardened steel…) And as our armor classes were the same (probably them wearing epic, us not), me and the others getting killed in two to three heavy hits. (Well, we are usually playing pve and switched to some private pve testlive after that…)
For daggers probably a half or maybe a whole second? Also I often only see those heavier attacks slightly after my attack started and then was locked in. This is what I meant.
But as you are talking about “good rythm”.
What about people who are already struggling with northern ghosts?
There are people who arent used to this type of game or simply a little doddery or put bluntly: bad.
Another possiblity: people who unwillingly loose concentration all the time.
-> As all those people might even know this themselfes, they would probably prefer pve or some kind of civilized pvp (i.e. without robbing whole corpse) but with healing almost completely gone, those could be screwed even in certain pve situations.
Even those people like this game but would probably be locked out (of parts of the game) if one rendered infight healing inviable. (Which would be the case with eighter too long cooldowns OR too long animations.)
I think the core problem of infight healing is that it’s too strong. Not too often, but simply too strong. I guess one cannot outdps aloe potions, herbal tea or these omnious feasts. (Havent tried them.) As for pve, it would probably be fine with “only” half of the amount. Maybe even with only a third of that…
Could you describe those “long” battles? What kind of playstyle is sitting behind those fights? Is it full tanks against full/partly tanks? (Like having 40 vitality, wearing heavy armor and eighter some spear/polearm or one handed weapon plus shield.)
Maybe those full tanks simply need a good counter, which would have been people who are specialized in armor penetration. I guess every weapon got adjusted to 9-15% penetration? If even hammers wont have 30% or slightly more (dont forget about the penetration kit!) the idea of tanks is probably another issue for this whole thing being a problem. (An 40 accuracy guy would boost that up yet again: (30+15)*1,5 -> 67% ap)… A squishy target (=light or medium armor) probably (?) isnt able to use healing as efficient as a tank can.
But all that everyone is doing is cutting down the symptoms to archieve potions being pots -> plain decoration, instead of trying to adjust the cause.
You might want to delete potions and all else healing consumables and only allow bandages, as those are working in the way you want potions to work… (Though those arent reduced but rather unusable during combat.)
I honestly think that rendering heavy armor not only with advantages but disadvantages (more than that little jump dodge) as well, plus properly balancing out every armor+weapon setup might already help. (And tuning healing down to 60, 50 or even 35% of their current values might give that the finishing touch?)
I hate the thought of “balancing” being shifting the meta to some else OP combo. I really prefer any combo having a real counter, which is itself countered by some else combo again. The greatest issue with balancing is that people start to cry about something and order the devs to adjust those insanely OP things into nothingness, while other items/things might be flamed for being way too weak.
I think those devs (like at lol) dont really think about “balance” but only pleasing the players, ending up in metas being shifted all the time, while some playstyles might get nerfed into nothingness. I am really sad for that to happen so often.
That being said, every single suggestion about cooldowns or animation would need time before launch… I think its more realistic to have them tune the healed amount down, as that would only be already existing numbers which only need to be lowered…
I really appreciate your points. It’s kind of a hard ask to request animations for potions and food, especially since the developers already kind of ‘finished’ that part of the game. I think you’re right where at the end of your post you say that it’s more realistic for the devs to just balance the numbers at this point.
The problem with potions isn’t that you cant out-DPS them, it’s that potions make running around avoiding being hit for 30 seconds (while you heal) a viable strategy. It’s not fun when right as you’re about to win, your opponent starts to dash around the area, while your sluggish hits can’t connect. Could you imagine that happening in boxing?
That is a fact indeed! People who disagree with that its the ones who prefers the abuse healing playstyle. It doesn’t fit the game at all, it feels exactly like a mmo and CE is a game that should be more barbaric with savage deadly fights than " Paladin vs Shaman" stereotype.
I’d guess anywhere from 20 seconds, 30 seconds, all the way up to 1 minute as a CD, but it would require actual testing and depend on whether or not hitboxes / attack animations are improved to catch people that run. The idea would be you get one major heal or “second chance” per fight unless you manage to get away from an opponent or hide long enough to heal again.
Constantly healing in the background (instantly without any penalty) could be considered an MMO-thing too except in this game it’s laughably unbalanced. Usually MMOs at least attempt to make mechanics like that fair, fun, and interactive. Plenty of people have shared the same feedback. When you don’t die in 2 or 3 hits and start understanding the “healing meta” (if you can call it that) then you’ll see where the complaints come from.
It’s not our fault if it needs time to adapt before launch-- the devs can make time. Or they can release a horribly unbalanced game on May 8th that doesn’t address the most important focus of our feedback and make testlive look like it was just a political publicity stunt.
I admit that players may have been in the wrong with mounts, sorcery, multiple religions, race-exclusive traits or benefits. But we aren’t wrong about healing.
In the last Devstream they said: balancing is an ongoing process in all such games and if there will be things to change in future they could do this when the player want it to do them (assumed it is not gamebreaking) Right now it is essential that the game is stable and ready for release. For me the current state of the game is very good playable. They will still do some changes in combat for release. I am very optimistic.
I can see that without actual pvp though.
Even prior to 40th vitality perk, healing is too strong.
And that is the issue. I have never seen people complain about healing back in live state. Simply put: healing has become way too strong, and thats it.
And if you deny eating during combat, it will lock out that potion+eating combo.
Renjimaru: Rob are healing values being adjusted/tweaked -inhouse at all? is there any debate on the subject or its not really something on the radar?
@Renjimaru they are constantly being looked at. For example, we’ve removed the (frankly insane) healing from the Feasts @Renjimaru the intention is also to make potions stop healing once you take damage so it doesn’t turn into a “whomever has the most aloe wins” type of fight. Having said that, last time I implemented that, I broke the game. Because religious reasons. No clue why
That sounds like a fair solution, as you would have to spam (and waste) tons of potions -> there is a limit to how much one can carry. Though herbal tea wasnt too heavy, or what did those weight?
It still means to waste tons of consumables though.
@Renjimaru the intention is also to make potions stop healing once you take damage so it doesn’t turn into a “whomever has the most aloe wins” type of fight.
That sounds like a fair solution, as you would have to spam (and waste) tons of potions -> there is a limit to how much one can carry.
I don’t agree. It doesn’t remove “the one who carries the most potions wins”. Because you can just re-apply healing after each hit. The one with 100 potions will always win against the one with 20. Yes, it makes it expensive, but doesn’t fix the problem. I think a 20 seconds cooldown or more would be muuuuch better. Like many of you have said before me; please don’t give me this healer vs healer combat. I want barbaric combat, were a spear through my heart can’t be healed in 5 - 10 seconds.
There was a time in last stream when joel meantioned daggers but soon after that said he doesnt want to discuss fighting strategies. (He was answering on someone asking about healing being op and how to handle that.)
(Am I really the only one tying those two things together? Because with that what Ren spread in that other thread, assuming its no fake, it will completely resolve that issue, making pvp a non-selfhealing-pvp, while pve stays untouched. Skill only needs to make a difference in pvp, but noone should mind different skill in pve.)
As we will lose ANY healing on any kind of damage (at least for bandages that goes for equipping anything and climbing as well), applying a dot (dagger -> bleed; bow+snake arrow -> poison) will supress the enemy’s healing ability. That means you will not only want to play with like spears, polearms or another weapon… But with those other weapons as well.
Going that way and if keeping in mind “heavy” attack of daggers have shorter range in terms of possibly closing a gap than their light combo, but can hit an enemy twice, I would be wary if daggers could become the next generation of OP weapons.
That being said. How do the poisons work we can apply on our weapons? (I never used those.)
They may help as anti-healing as well.
And at least at that point, I would not worry about any else changes to healing - aside of lowering the amount those consumables heal.
Healing is way too strong in the game right now and dodge is still a little strong tho alot better than what it was. Right now you just stack exotic feast aloe and bandage and gg the heals are insane. Healing like that cant be countered or punished currently which makes fights even with noobs much longer than they need to be. Nerf healing so it does not stack nor is it strong while in combat.
I would like to see a eat/drink animation personally for those things as well. Also can make poison useful by making it decrease healing effects by 33% or more. While on condition type damage bleed needs a buff as well as poison.
Well It shouldnt be be fake, It was answered in a stream by part of the coder team.
Also gave alot of helpful purge related info and such.
I will just add, The thing i mentioned earlier, Will probably not be patched/tweaked in untill Patch 2, After launch. (Which probably wont be that long after release)
Just in case.
On testlive you cannot stack exotic feast and aloe. You cannot use bandages while holding any weapon/shield.
Also exotic feast has been rightfully nerfed. Aloe potions are again the best source of healing.
The problem is as long as we will be able to run and heal at the same time there will always be a stalemate in fights when someone decides to run or sprint while the health gets renewed.
The passive regen has a nice mechanic - it doesnt work for quite a while after being damaged hint hint.
dodging cost stamina, and depend to what you wear, I think it’s balanced, It’s fair players with light armor can easily dodge, He can’t make it indefinitely, it’s tactic. having a systeme where players are face to face and attack each other, without dodging, it look the very old combat système of conan exiles, it was not very interessant versus in my opinion. Build character on capability to dodge, with light armor, lot point invested in grit, it’s a valid way, and in other way, your character will not be very résistant.