Exactly.
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My biggest fear is of course that a focus on fixing perks will happen, and yay we get our dopamine hits when we get better perks.
But we still have hidden modifiers and in consistent stats. I would much rather have the perks (or no perks) as they are. If the stats were standardized across followers. And the hidden stats were done away with.
These threads need to change their focus away from perks and to that thrall revamp. Then the perks can actually matter.
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I disagree (but we’ve been through this before) - I do consider the hidden modifiers to be important as well - but the perks are still an issue that I consider to be worth pushing. In part this comes down to practicality - a change to the tables from which perks are selected would be a relatively simple low-collateral-impact change. If all that was done with hidden modifiers was to reveal them, then that too would be a relatively simple change - but a full revamp of the way thralls function would inevitably be higher impact and take longer.
I understand the argument that pushing for simple changes that merely patch over what you see as the bigger problem takes focus away from eventually getting the bigger change - but there is also the simple practicality of the impact the change can have in the immediate term. ‘Fixing’ the perks would have an immediate benefit to the enjoyment of many players, now. ‘Fixing’ the hidden modifiers (and revamping thralls in general) might have greater benefits long term, but it also leaves the negative perks situation in place for far longer.
I also understand why you fear that these threads may delay (or even prevent) the bigger fix that you want - I can’t deny that is a risk - though I think your persistence on this issue will make sure it does not get forgotten (and rightly so). But I’d also say that the perks issue is about more than just getting dopamine hits for getting better perks - for me at least, it’s about not being made to feel negatively about the whole thrall levelling process - a core loop of the game. Sure, it’s nice when you see Redeemed or the like come up - but I’d much rather look at the perks and think ‘that’s ok/that’s irrelevant’ than ‘here we go again’. Whether that comes through a system such as Pugilist suggested - or a more player-proactive approach like Marcospt suggested is less important to me than just not making me (and others) feel negatively each time we come to a core game element.
The simple reality is that I don’t actually mind the hidden modifiers that much - I’d prefer if they were revealed properly in the UI - but I like the variation that they add. I understand some of the arguments for why they’re not good (beyond just the ‘hidden’ element), but they simply don’t bother me that much (except in the fact that they are ‘hidden’). The perks, on the other hand, bug the hell out of me and negatively impact my enjoyment of the game. That may not be fully rational - certainly it is an argument based on feeling rather than facts - but we play games for enjoyment, and if something negatively impacts enjoyment, then it’s worth raising as an issue.
I don’t really believe either of us will ever fully convince the other on this issue - I think you’re viewing it from an intellectual/logical perspective and I’m concerned with an emotional aspect. But that’s fine. So long as we keep raising the important points we can keep pressure on Funcom to hopefully improve both aspects. I don’t object to a more thorough overhaul of the thralls, and I’d like to see the hidden modifiers revealed, but I want to see the perks get fixed, and I’m not going to agree to changing the focus of threads like this - broadening it to cover both, sure - but I’m not letting the perks issue go. Sorry, not sorry. 
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Read the rest of my post.
Hmm, we have very different game experiences in this regard. Of my 79 thralls, about 60 of them have a level 10 perk, about 20 of them have a level 15 perk, and about 7 or 8 have one for reaching level 20. So that’s almost 90 total “perk events”. Of those 90 about 80 are advantageous - even if by a small amount, about 30 are the best you could hope for or at least look good in text, and I don’t think even one is actually disadvantageous. I haven’t even see a “Warden” perk yet, so that tells me it’s quite rare. Maybe it’s tied to people’s posting history on the forums and handed to the most ridiculously insensitive or drunken cigar smokers? 
We do indeed. (And I find Warden comes up plenty.) For some samples of what perks I get, you can see this thread (again). But the thing you are missing is the impact that one bad perk has (again - I’m talking feeling, not numbers) - it can change your entire perception of the follower you’ve just spent around 15 hours plus as your constant companion while you worked to build them up (and that’s assuming you’re levelling them pretty quickly). It doesn’t matter that the other two perks might be decent, that negative has a direct impact.
There is also considerable difference in different approaches to the game, and thralls in general: you have 79 thralls in varying stages of levelling, and you presumably work on levelling and equipping them bit by bit. I am coming to the end of a long playthrough and have 12 fighting thralls (plus a couple of dancers), all of them level 20, all of them having been with me on numerous different adventures against a range of enemies. Each of them matters to me. Each has a name, their own weapons and armor, their own history of the things we fought together. I’ve done playthroughs where I’ve built up hordes of faceless base defenders - I didn’t enjoy the game anywhere near as much - they meant less to me, and the game meant less to me. Perhaps that helps to better illustrate why this matters to me?
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I equipped mine all at once or as I got them. But yeah as we concluded in the previous weeks you RP it a lot more than I, whereas I am more the utilitarian player. I started with all 100% greater bears, and then in just 1 or 2 days replaced the vase majority of them with T3 Fighters and Archers. And then began leveling them one by one to level 10 - unless I was on the other side of the map from my base - in which case they made it to 15 or 20 before we got back. At this point I’m thinking to begin replacing them with T4 thralls (maybe). So it’s like a numbers game with little or no emotional content - and mostly for base conservation during a purge.
I think I can understand your feelings though. For me it’s only a momentary sigh and then I forget all about it. I look at thrall Stats only when and as they level up to the 10,15, 20 mark. In either case though I don’t think it’s something that needs to be changed in the game. It’s a crap shoot… It adds a consequential random element to the game and makes the thrall population more diverse overall. I suppose you could look at it like:
They could always change it to where the thralls all started out at 100 HP with all stats at zero. And then whatever you got in random perks were always positive - but random. I guess we would feel better - but the results would ultimately be the same.
Or for the RP feelings of it all, you could think of it as a debilitating illness which makes thralls more human like - especially for period RP… What was the actual survival rate from illness back then anyway? They either come out of it stronger or, yeah, debilitated. 
I am not sure if you think this is funny, or you are just a very narcissistic person.
You do realize you can have a discussion without throwing in veiled insults, disguised as humor.
You should try it sometime.
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Nah, I’m good… 
This is interesting but I am wondering about the programming and maintenance required to track 50+ thralls per person. Currently, the system generates stats based on the NPC baseline definition and makes a RNG each level for attributes with the current food consumed as a variable then a perk RNG at 10, 15, and 20. This system doesn’t track anything, so system overhead is minimal and temporary.
Still, I would enjoy some sort of agency in my thrall leveling, even if it were just different perk pools for fighters, archers, pets, and mounts. Toss in a dedicated perk pool for dancers and that would be awesome.
They need not all be positive, just relevant, akin to “Broken Ankle” for a dancer to reduce agility.
To add to the point @DanQuixote made, I want to feel like my choices and actions matter and with the current perk system, that is not the case.
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If you have a point, you’ll need to state it. If it’s not that important, no worries.
No, that’s not how logic works.
You haven’t seen a Warden perk yet, so you have not seen a Warden perk yet.
I have seen a Warden perk with some regularity.
It’s like it’s RNG or something.
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Yeah, some folks have a need to be right or in charge or . . .something. It’s a mindset I know exists but, foundationally, can’t understand.
If the facts say 2+2 = 4, it’s true no matter how I feel, but there are people who have stated a point and lack the flexibility of mind to admit error or distinguish between the statement of fact and the voicing of an opinion.
They are, usually the same folks who make a claim about a preference being a positive trait, akin to “People who like the color blue are more intelligent” because, in their experience, they like the color blue and all the people they like also like the color blue, and that’s the extent of the “reasoning” process.
Discussion with these folks is not a priority for me.
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Yeah, I see the whole pet system, which Giants fall into due to a lack of modification ability via armor and weapons, as mostly useless with thrall limits. I find even the top of the line pets to be less effective than a cim berserker, which the game gives away like candy, and I do not have to RNG to get a greater version.
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New thrall station: Training Stand
2x2 footprint and uses a Taskmaster for increased speed.
Generates a set amount of XP per second to passively level a thrall.
1 Slot.
Placing appropriate food as fuel has an increased chance to level certain stats.
Tier 2 upgrade to a Training Pit
4x4 footprint and can hold up to 2 thralls in training, increased XP gain.
Must place thralls into the station BEFORE placing them in the world.
Will not function without fuel.
Leveling speed is slow overall (would be faster to level manually) but an option for those who cannot log on all the time or are focused on leveling other thralls.
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But is it at the same rate as Expert Survivalist? I’m have tempted to rename the clan to Eagle Scouts with all the thralls that are apparently Expert Survivalist.
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Totally agree with one exception. The named dogs in Spitah from playful pups. about 50% of them are BRUTAL while the other 50% are Wardens if you catch my meaning.
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That is a neat idea but way OP. Are you telling me I can overnight level thralls? Imagine how fast I raise an army of Teimos ( a fast leveler no less).
Another idea to throw into the field:
One could give thralls and pets different use cases.
- Giants, for example, might get a damage bonus against buildings and other huge creatures.
- Undead (which currently are pretty underwhelming) might cause a small constant AoE damage around them.
- Archers might be stronger against animals, animal pets against humans, melee thralls against undead and so on.
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No, this method should be purposefully be slower (a few days at least, with longer times depending on tier) with no adjustments admin wise (because if you’re on singleplayer you could insta-level them anyways). You’re also still getting RNG perks so there’s no guarantee of an uber result.
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