Pure archery builds

#1

Forget the images that video games burnt into your brain and answer this question:
You stand 2 meters away from a hostile going toward you with a “pointed stick”.
Do you reach to the quiver, take an arrow out, put it on the chord, draw the bow, aim and release?
Just saying… anyone who thinks that “bow-only” gameplay should be an obvious option needs to get real. The “quick shots” we have using light attacks with bows are super unnatural.
I would love to see a mechanic that make bows take huge durability hits for being drawn out while attacked in melee.
Archery has a lot of advantages and uses based solely on being a ranged weapon.
Good thing it cannot be shot as effectively while moving anymore.
Most of the bow damage come from arrow type now - this is a very good change.

I see quite some accuracy/grit builds around. Base idea is to roll away and shoot. It is hard for me to image that after a few backflips all arrows are still in a quiver.

I know it is fantasy but even there should be limits. Robin Hood used a sword a lot.

#2

The ancient form of archery is much faster than the target-shooting that we know today. Archers would have drawn and fired their bows instantly as they drew them, to maximize the power and aggression of the bow. Even traditional wooden bows take a lot of strength to fire — I don’t find it unusual that a bow could kill in one headshot, or disable you with a shot to the gut. A crossbow is even stronger and faster.

I feel that the progression towards archery is cool and interesting, but that players should ultimately ‘finish off’ their enemies using melee weapons. You can shoot a few free shots before your enemy reaches melee range, but at that point, you’ll need to swap to melee. The current inaccuracy-while-moving works well to accomplish this. With a bow, you can really use the terrain to your advantage, and punish your enemies for having to climb.

I think that bows are at a good point balance-wise, but also deserve a slight (5-10%) buff to make it more of an approved playstyle. That buff should address the specific ways that archers use bows, rather than just be a flat damage boost. Maybe something like making devoted archers able to reclaim arrows from dead bodies.

#3

Actually very interesting topic , this is not a joke and please watch till the end both of those vid. this guy is legend:


#4

I agree. It is a gaming convention that bows are viable dueling weapons. The big advantage of bows is that it is possible to hit someone who cannot hit you back. Whether on towers, or walls, or behind barricades, bows are best used when there is an obstacle between you and the target or against targets that would rather run than charge you. Historically this is how bows have been used. The only exception are the cavalry archers such as Turks, Mongols, and Scythians.

Ever since the days of Ultima Online, kiting with a bow has always felt more like an exploit than a feature. At least Conan includes a cone of inaccuracy now. This is a good thing. It makes kiting less of a thing. If you want to move and shoot with a bow and let loose your inner Legolas, then you really need to commit to it. That seems fair.

#5

Love the Lars Andersen videos. Amazing. Thanks for posting.

Some of the perceptions about bows are a shame really, but circumstantially understandable.

The following is stated as a general reply to the content of arguments based on perceptions possibly biased in favor of melee and PVP play styles and personal visions of difficulty and fun applied to all that unfortunately no matter the tone and intention often comes across as, “Git gud”. Just as no matter my tone or intention, I’ll always have some bias in favor of bow and PVE play styles, especially when as such, I often feel as though I am ever on the defensive and the way I should play dictated to me. It is not stated in relation to any past, current or future CE mechanics.

Maintaining your aim, speed and accuracy while fighting, moving and guarding requires practice, skill and commitment with any weapon type.

One could quite easily also say, “If you want to move and slice/chop and let loose your inner Aragorn/Gimli, then you really need to commit to it.”

#6

Nice video, but I’m a bit skeptical of many of the claims Lars Andersen makes…

He’s a good trick shooter though, I’ll give him that. He sets up his stunts pretty well.

#7

Yeah I saw the Lars Andersen videos quite a while back. I also saw alot of videos from archers debunking him. His shots have barely got any power to them. It is as if you would shake your fist close to a wall and claim you can hit it 10 times a second. It shows in the second video the most, the arrows are set loose at such low speed that rotatory movement of his bow is able to twist their flight path. These videos are pretty much a scam to fool people. If I would take a handful of arrows, throw them like darts at a target all at once and then claim to break the record of arrows shot in a second without using a bow would you believe it?
Arrows, believe it or not, were quite expensive and noone would just empty his quiver like that becouse it looks cool. A proper welch longbow would take alot of both strength and training just to draw it to its full potential. This was not a “typical woman’s weapon” as a lot of movies/games present it today. A point of letting an arrow loose on an enemy is to deal as much damage as possible but first they would need to penetrate armor.

#9
#10

About “archers use both hands”, I think Lars means that archers should know how to use either hand to draw a bow, but this video read it like archers should use muscle from both shoulder.

#11

Are these not PvE builds? Becouse without vitality they will get 1 hit by Mitra spear.

Also balance-wise: the moment you make bow an effective kiting weapon is when everyone needs to become an archer.

#12

I think too much focus is on how Archery works in a 1 on 1 encounter.

What I’d like to see is how effective they are in a group encounter. Sure a pure archer build will be useless in a duel. But how effective is on in a 5v5 or 10v10 encounter? The ability to do constant ranged damage with the ability to cripple may yet prove to be effective.

There’s always going to be a best build for dueling. Its probably not likely to be focused on Accuracy. But every build has its place depending on what you are doing. And Archery has yet (to my knowlege) been tested for this.

#13

Well there is 1 spot where archery will always shine: sieges. When there is an obstacle between you and enemy preventing you from getting into melee range then ranged is the only option and therefore the best option.

#14

The archer will still be the weakest link. Sure, they could augment a fight, by for instance crippling opponents, but you’re giving up about 60% of their potential damage by fielding them as an archer instead of a fighter.

The ability to do constant ranged damage with the ability to cripple may yet prove to be effective.

All of your fighters are still able to effect cripple on their opponents, using javelins, throwing axes, etc. The only difference would be that a dedicated archer could theoretically sustain this effect from a longer distance. It’s not a bad effect to put on an enemy, as it would be very similar to the ‘crowd control’ that exists in other games. I just think that you’ll get even more control by fielding another whole fighter (which has major impact), rather than a dedicated archer (which has a peripheral impact).

As for constant damage, that’s assuming that the archer can make their hits accurately. The lock-on mechanic only works for a medium-short distance. Any further away, and the archer needs to time their combos extremely well to be able to hit in PvP.

An archer participating from the side-lines on a melee fight needs to be very careful not to hit their own teammates. They would have to be attacking from an angle that isn’t behind their teammates, which puts them at risk of being overwhelmed by the enemy (should they turn around). They can’t control how their teammates move, much less the enemies, and shooting into a melee fight from long range can be very unpredictable.

#15

Nice Topic…great posts.

Playing the CE Old Bow vs New Bow mechanics I think the new one is quite bad. I don’t disagree about the ‘Pull and Loose’ of the animation but there is Zero Pause at the back like there is in a True Pull and Loose repeat fire scenario. I do like the Power Shot where you have time to ‘Lead’ your target and set it before release. Usually I am firing far out of the Auto-Lock range…which is fine…I don’t want Auto-Lock anyhow.

The Old Bow mechanic played very well. I would have to climb on a ledge and defeat a high HP foe or could kite a huntable one. I would have to scout out and think about what my options were before engaging solo. The melee combat (the new is so much better) I would finish them off with a Pike. Great combination! With the new melee combat I tend to favor the Javelin and Shield with a Bow over the Pike. In whichever method is played (lots of options now) the Bow Mechanic should go back to the Old One but with the damage more based upon the arrow like now…and ALSO remove that frickin’ arrow in the hand bug that only gets removed by killing yourself. =)

As for group content and the New Bow I can say for certain that I am fairly useless unless using just the power shot. With so many things moving and no adjustment pause prior to firing the ‘Quick Shots’ are wasting arrows. I see a lot of people say => “Well Use Snake Arrows”…which means…cheat/admin a few stacks in a use them to do maximum damage on the few hits you actually do prior to entering melee. Not saying everyone is cheating these in…it is simply a fact that Iron Arrows and Razor Arrows will be the primary Archer ammunition during the entire play. Simple to manufacture and can use them in stack after stack to support the melee up front. Pretty much follows the historical archer as well. Specialty arrows were a thing but when it came to shooting hundreds of them…Iron or Steel tipped were the flavor of the day.

My two coppers.

#16

This is untrue. For only 5 feat points and a visit to the teacher. You can make Set Arrows at a carpentry bench using only branches. Razor arrows require steel, feathers, and branches.

The only use for poison currently in PVP is to prevent healing. The damage from it is negligible, the Vitality health regen entirely negates it. The reason for this is how slow your arrows come out at a time coupled with the 3rd hit in the ranged combo taking too long. Finally the stamina cost of shooting is horrendous on top of all that.

Accuracy is simply not on par with any other attribute. It is even behind Agility and Survival currently. From what I’ve found in a PVP scenario, a dedicated archer is not recommended except for the largest engagements. When you have about 7-10 on your side, a dedicated archer actually does quite well if they use set arrows and keep people who back off from healing. They also help with the group’s Salt the Wound damage.

In smaller engagements they are weak targets that go down rather quickly.

#17

the problem isn’t the damage output, it’s the aiming mechanics in relation to locking on targets. The system is set up with the lock on feature in mind but with how short that distance is, there is absolutely no point at all in taking a bow over melee because you’re going to be in melee range anyways. Bows just need to be able to properly aim and lead your shots. Especially in a situation where you and your friends are fighting them and their friends, otherwise it becomes an absolute crapfest

#18

This is ONLY true for Set Temples. As a Mitra or Ymir character anything Set related is a ‘No Go’.

Soooooo…let us assume that we take no stock in the Hyborean Age Religion…and skip out Role Playing your character for the pure benefit of better arrows. Yep…I ‘Get It’. So head out and find Mek-Kamoses and learn it for free (otherwise it would cost 50 points)…hmm…drink a risky Yellow Lotus Potion…it resets and ‘Maybe’ you can get it back by going to see him again. Bug does not hit…we are back in Snake Arrow business.

My opinion…again…I prefer to have the Religion to actually mean something in game. I usually play a Hyborian (should be Nemedian) or Nordheimer light skirmisher that is adaptable and uses ranged attacks as a starter or support the upfront melee as a quick flanker. The combination is quite deadly…but…once that melee is down I am usually squished like butter and jam on hot toast. =) The new daggers (the roll and punish then distance) add some extra depth…but I still ‘Feel’ the Javelin and Shield with Bow just makes a better Skirmisher. Again, melee is so much better for a Lightly Armored and Nimble character…fighting nude or with cloth or light leather is soooo much more viable now. Bows…damage-wise are fine…aiming and use-wise…simply horrible.

#19

Thank You! My point exactly. You posted while I was posting. Damage is FINE in my opinion…the Aiming and Mechanics is utter BS.

#20

Well this is not reality, it’s a video game.

In this video games bows are a weapon with costs similar to all other weapons.

In this video game bows are basically useless. Damage output is abysmal, it’s in no way comparable to any other weapons.

I don’t care what dev says what about ‘put all your points into accuracy’. Nope, I shouldn’t have to dump all my points into a single attribute just to make the weapon viable when all other weapons are already viable without needing to do that.

I know there were glitches and exploits before… So either they didn’t bother to fix exploits and nerfed bows, or they did bother and then should have been no need to nerfed them as far into the ground as they did. Terrible balancing.

#21

the “balancing” in general seems to be stacked into on particular playstyle. You can see it in the armor design too