Suggestion: Add DEFEAT instead of killing, as a way to balance combat by Raikira


#1

Suggestion: Add DEFEAT instead of killing, as a way to balance combat
Read many posts on how combat is unbalanced and how different tiers makes it difficult to get back after losing all items etc.

I have a suggestions that could, to a degree, help with this.

Funcom could add a mechanic for defeating a player without actually killing the player. A defeated players enters a downed state, where you can get helped up again or if left alone can use first aid/limp away.

In this state the opponent can decide if they want to finish the job, with an execution, or leave you alone (or even help you up again).

Executions increase corruption, which would pace (yes, pace, not prevent) needless murders and gankings

The above should of course be an option for server owners, not enforced on all servers.

This would open up for some pretty gruesome executions…

Also, an skillfull warrior dont have to kill to show their strength, a defeated player quickly understands what at stake if it’s worth to bother the stronger warrior again.

this was originally posted by Raikira on the Steam Forums (suggestions tab)


#2

If the aggressor wants your items he would execute you anyway.
If he wants to display his strength and not take all your items, he won’t take all your items.
Downed state is good for competitive matches where dmg spikes will not instantly take a player out of the game or MMO’s with no ressurect abilities.


#3

It serves Roleplaying purposes, and punishes Griefing, the idea isn’t bad at all man, thus why I’ve imported it here


#4

I didn’t say its a bad idea. All I’m saying is it might break the immersion of the survival game. If two opponents are in a clash then any second you need to fear the fatal blow. If you want to yield you better start running and screaming for mercy (default key T and a microphone or surrender emote).
I would love to see some gruesome executions, but I would also hate being locked to any animation mid combat.
Murder and gankings, isn’t that what people join PvP servers for?

I would prefer the wounded instead of downed state. Say instead of stacks of an effect make it a single one once the counter reaches certain number like you getting a lame limb making you limp or loosing shield/ability to use two handed weapons, bleed that can only be nullified by applying bandages, concussion which makes your attacks miss the center of your screen etc.


#5

Thanks @Sigurd for posting this, was just about to myself, but dont mind the help - hopefully we can get some devs/CM’s feedback on this!

Edit: I originally posted this on reddit, because I was unsure which forum was the most active, there where some good feedback and discussion on that thread so I’m linking that here in case anyone is interested https://www.reddit.com/r/ConanExiles/comments/82n30t/suggestion_to_balanceimprove_combat_prevent/


#6
  • Really like the idea!
  • Wonderful!
  • Really genial!
  • This should even have psychological consequences as a side effect.

:wave: Funcom, listen to this!

Murder and gankings, is not what EVERYBODY joins PvP servers for, indeed. Well, we see the world with the eyes we have. Solgam has also good points of view.

There might even be part of the mechanics, in some way, that the opponent can demand/loot the defeated one without execution. If you deny… face then execution.


#7

This is true, but then the aggressor pays the price, the corruption. This wont stop anyone at 0% corruption for striking down an enemy, but it might stop someone on a mindless killing spree once they suddenly are at 50% corruption and realize they might face defeat and lose their ill gotten gains. Cause and consequence, balance, as in all things.


#8

What if you get attacked and succesfully defend yourself? Why penalties then? If not then what if someone runs in front of you when you PvE and get hit first?
Would corruption spread amongs people who attacked victim recently or just the final hit?
What if you accidentaly shoot/hit one of your own?
If it grants any penalties/advantages in a fight people will find ways around it and abuse. You can’t design a fair law system for that. At least humanity didn’t as we hear about criminals getting away with stuff all the time IRL right?
Corruption is a mystic force. Tied to dungeons, monoliths and ancient civilisations I’d assume.


#9

If you get attacked and successfully defend yourself you face the same dilemma as the attacker. Will you murder or walk away?

If you strike someone by mistake in PvE I don’t see how that would be a different user story?

Corruption would not be added on a per strike/attack basis, but on murder as I originally suggested.

As to your other issues, I wrote “I have a suggestions that could, to a degree, help with this.” It’s not a silver bullet for anything.

Also, you did notice I suggested that this should apply on a server to server basis, so it would be easy for gankers/griefers to pick another server to play on.


#10

The idea definitely has merit. I think the most obvious flaw, to me, is that if you’re getting trolled and NEED to put them down but they keep spawning and griefing you and you can’t remove corruption fast enough it could get pretty grim.

Other than that it’s very neat.


#11

you should be able to flee after defeating an griefer, or if not, kill them and just move on…

Corruption isn’t a permanent stack, return to base, reduce it, move onto a different location and keep doing whatever you were doing before. If you are disputing an area for farming, as when you are being griefed right now, you’ll not be able to do that at that moment in time, so you take your time. Main advantage to this? The guy won’t be able to camp that place for much longer because he himself will most likely be stacking more corruption than he can handle on spot.


#12

I strongly disagree with the idea that corruption should budge into this mechanic.

Corruption has no place in creating a ‘morality’ system, because killing is not an inherently immoral thing in the Conan universe. Nor is it in our own universe. A man tries to kill you, you kill him in self defense. Should you gain corruption? Of course not!

However I did suggest a similar dynamic to your ‘downed’ state here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ConanExiles/comments/83bmrm/a_fistfull_of_suggestions/

My version was limited to just the knockdown mechanic, here’s how I described it:

Give us a ‘knockdown’ (aka execution) state, where our player is on the ground, incapacitated. This is where we can communicate to other players, beg for mercy, tell them to suck on a pickle, or even be helped back up by them (after being stripped, of course). This mechanic does a lot for the success of games like Rust, PUBG, or Gears of War. This knockdown state could even feed into future features, such as fatalities, dragging players using bindings, or religious sacrifices.


#13

thx but no thx I do like this one, won’t agree on that


#14

A wounded or defeated state introduces a new branch of mechanics that may not fit well with the already existing systems in the game.

How would this mechanic work with PvE content?

Also, why not simply extrapolate on the already existing ‘knockout’ effect that happens to thralls? Find a way to make it work with PvP content?


#15

With PvE, this mechanic would not apply to enemies. When you kill an enemy, they are instantly dead. But when a player is killed by an NPC, then they get knocked down, with the potential for a friend to kill their attacker and save their friend.

I’d also suggest adding a ‘bleed out’ end stage. If a friend doesn’t come and rescue you, then you will die. This prevents players from hiding on rooftops and simply rising up again after they are knocked down.

There would also need to be a debuff to prevent players from repeatedly picking each other up — If you are knocked down again while the debuff is in effect, you just die.

I think the player should enter a ‘kneeling’ animation when they are knocked down. From there, you can use fiber bindings on them, which puts them into a ragdoll state. Or, you can simply execute them. You might also be able to enter the player’s inventory (as if they were unconscious).


#16

I believe a while back the devs mentioned that the biggest problem with PVP capture, thralling, and sacrifice was not a mechanical one. It was a gameplay one. It is not fun to have your game time consumed by watching someone bind your character and drag them around. That is time you could spend actually playing. It might be one thing if that capture interaction only last a few seconds, but it is easy to see how a griefer could knock out your character, bind it, and spend as much time as they could dragging the limp character all over the map for no other reason than imagining how upset you are at not being able to do anything except sit there helpless watching your character get dragged around.

When players hear something like this and think it is cool it is because they all think they are going to be Achilles. No one stops to think that they might end up being Hector.


#17

The solution could be as simple as allowing the player to remove their bracelet while being dragged. This would separate the player’s mind from their body — allowing the enemy to sacrifice the player’s limp body, while the player can get back to their own action.


#18

While I have not played those games, I have watched enough ARK videos, as well as videos of people playing games that have downing mechanics to know that powertripping is rampant in games that have those mechanics; ARK allows you to take someone prisoner and I guess force feed them as well (although I’m not sure about that), and I’ve seen that be abused countless times for people’s own, personal powertrips, so much so that the prisoners just log out - although having said that, there might be a suicide mechanic in ARK as well, and they’ve simply not used it, I’m not sure. In games where there’s downing mechanics, you get constant teabagging and other ways of humiliating the person who has been downed, not the least of which is through voice chat.

If there was a downing mechanism put into Conan Exiles, then I for one would love for there to be an option in the settings that you can turn on, which will make you commit suicide automatically when you’re downed, to avoid the powertrips completely. I’m personally fine with dying and losing a fight, but I’m not fine with having the choice of whether I live or die, once the combat is already over, be at any point in the hands of some random person.

Having said that, I feel like if the developers wanted us to be able to kick people when they’re already down, they would’ve given us the ability to use the truncheon to knock people out, and then drag them around, even take them prisoner and so on. They haven’t added that, nor even talked about adding that ever, so I’m not convinced they’d be on board with a downing mechanism, either.

Plus, of course, what if you just want to kill people in combat? With a downing mechanism in place, you wouldn’t be able to land a killing blow in combat.

Anyways, that’s just my two cents. I personally have no need, as the winner of the situation, for a mechanic such as this. If I want to kill someone, I want to kill them in combat. If I don’t want to kill them, I won’t engage them in combat in the first place. I have no need to “prove myself” to anyone by doing combat with them and then letting them go. You can have arenas and events for that sort of thing. But that’s just me.


#19

Yes, there’s force feed in Ark, and downing mechanics are (pulling statistics out my own *rse) 99% a griefing tool, 1% an RPing tool.

Having an optional setting to allow for corruption punishment for griefing isn’t at all exploitable. It can be, however, cumbersome under certain circumstances like Sieges, but then again it is possible to add war declaration systems, which in return could warn people that they are about to get attacked (as long as the war declaration worked like a really slow crafting, like converting a lvl 4 thrall), so when you start the process whoemever’s going to be attack is warned, and the relative time is calculated and informed to the defender.

If not by those means, it could be a player optional to enable the option, in this case if both players have it disabled, no one gets corruption and no “downed” state during fights, however, if someone has it on he’ll be downed, and if killed by the other part (who has it disabled) the other part still gets corruption from the kill…

It is, by all means, possible, and barely exploitable as I’ve said. One could try to “troll” as a defender in a Siege, but then again he wouldn’t have any means of defending himself if he gets killed multiple times, making the raid itself a coward’s move (in other words “punishable” in my book), if he stands a chance of defending himself, and has it enable, he’d accumulate corruption himself too for each PK he did, and that being said, this means that if a player enables the system he’ll be punished even if he kills other players who have the option disabled, as well as getting downed when defeated and if executed the other part who has the opt disabled would also get corruption, but never be downed.

If none of the options above, it could be linked to “pvp timers” that we already have, and if a server allows for Raiding during certain hours at certain days, the system would be automatically disabled for every player in the server…

Those are many option to get a system that is less exploitable as a griefing tool than the idea of having PvP unconsciousness. I’ve played Ark, and believe when I say, it is a really poor choice of Game Design to add any way of immobilizing a player and tool around with said player by the hand of other players.

I think summing it up, no one should get decreasing curves of corruption gain even if the enemy player has maximum corruption when they are killing them. That being said, it would be like a mechanism intended for PvP Training among Clan members, PvP training among cross-clan members, PvP dispute without the risk of losing items for those who like to PvP but don’t want to grief. On the other Hand, griefers who’d kill and steal from corpses will not be able to do so unpunished, meaning that at each PK this person made, he’d become weaker and more vulnerable, but not necessarily dead / a target for other players, he’d only have extra “cost” to maintain his/her foul ways of playing, dis-encouraging it without prohibiting… Making it a more beneficial tool without killing the game’s core features. I think it is, in fact, a very clever form of branching out of the basic survival griefing fest that others games have in them. CE would be a pioneer with such a system…

Mortal Online, for instance, has a “criminal” system aiming to punish players who grief, but that system doesn’t work all too well, for there is absolutely zero disadvantages combat wise for griefers, they simply give morality to those who kill them, whilst prohibiting them to stroll inside cities / towns with NPCs. Yet if the PC was strong enough no NPC could stop him/her, and the other players who were more interested in RPing or were fresh toons leveling had massive disadvantage when facing the “criminal players” who’d most often than not be min-maxed toons at the hands of troll players…


#20

At the end of the day, there is a ‘surrender’ emote for a reason. It is ultimately up to the player base to decide if they will honor the emote’s purpose.

Building an entire mechanical system in vanilla, while interesting, may fare better under the umbrella of a mod or total conversion.