The matter of Shambala win/lose loot [POLL]

Secret World Legends General Discussion
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Since Funcom have already stated that PVP is currently “not on their priority list” - which i appreciate given that there has been an entire move to a new…something, The work and preperation of Season 2 & The Agent Network, plus other tweaks and such along the way.

I would still like to draw to their attention to a matter i feel has been neglected. While they did bring Shambala over to SWL as a PVP arena, currently the rewards for win or lose in Shambala are both the same.

I personally feel that this doesn’t do the arena any favours and makes even trying to win a match utterly futile and ultimately makes the current PVP zone, not a fun place to be. The lack of a meaningful reward for a win putting off any potential participation by new, current and returning players.

To bring the zone up to standard, i don’t feel that it needs anything added at all to the current loot pool for winning, what it offers i feel is quite generous, but i do feel it needs to have the reward for losing either removed or reduced in some way.

Currently as it stands we can and do receive some nice loot out of those bags, since it can be random across a number of talismans, weapons and glyphs. The shards offered are also, i feel - an adequate return for a win. So on the subject of winning i do feel what is on offer is most certainly acceptable.
However i do feel the problem arises when the same is offered for a lose.

The zone has had people previously running off the cliff to end a match or and cash in on both sides regardless of the manner of the participation. Some have even got angry at those who have participated with their full intention of playing to win a match, because it had went on longer than the planned - less than 20 seconds.

I don’t feel this is what was truly intended for this zone and do feel it could deserve a small look at the reward for losing being adjusted in some way. I still say remove the bags and only award shards for losing.

I’m not suggesting that anything else at present be considered, if PVP has for now been put on the back burner, rather than out to pasture, then that is acceptable.

But please do look at readjusting the current issue described, as i feel a small adjustment in the meantime would make all the difference.

This adjustment would make matches far more enjoyable, bring meaning and purpose to the zone and give those who want to play in the zone a reason for trying to at least win while they partake in the venture with a sense of real achievement and enjoyment.

I do feel it lacks this very much and this simple touch would add to SWL something which it currently does not have. I don’t expect to run a dungeon, vote retreat and then be awarded the loot for not finishing it’s objectives. I feel Shambala should have a different outcome of reward for losing not the same as winning.

I therefore put it to the public - That if they also feel this would be a beneficial and positive step in making Shambala both a more desirable place to PVP in and have reason and purpose to try and win a match, if it had a different outcome for losing rather than the same for just turning up.

The Poll below reflects a yes or no opinion and comments, suggestions and feedback on this particular issue i would hope to be welcome.

M

  • [YES] - Remove/adjust the loot gained from a “No win” in Shambala to make the effort of trying to win a match more valid and meaningful for PVP
  • [NO] - Leave it as it is

0 voters

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Shimbala-bim aint PvP. Its Scenario with virtual beings in “flip coin” event, cliff side of the wall. :smiley:

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Making it a win lose thing cuts the average reward in half. Basically it would be the deathblow to shambala (if you aren’t already considering it dead it will reach new levels of dead than) as it turns the whole thing even less incentivising. Since no skill in the world can guarantee you a win in a 10 vs 10 matchup

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I would say : lower number of required contestants. Getting a quorum to run Shambala may take hours at this time.
Make it a 5 VS 5 map so we actually can run the content.

EDIT: Or, rather 10 in queue to start. IF more sign in assign them to opposing teams as round-robin.

AND. It would be nice to have it played in 3 rounds.
Queing an hour for 60 seconds of playtime is meaningless … to me.

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5v5, less rounds, and more bags for winning and none for losing (maybe a bit more of consolation shards, but not to make up for shard sell price of bag items) sounds good.

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Honestly? SWL has way too much we’re trying to force you to enjoy the game our way already.

As such, a far better change would be to make it so there’s no point to playing (what passes for) PvP except for those who actually enjoy PvP.

Of course, that might require a fundamental rework of how SWL rewards people playing at all, but frankly? I could really use that, anyways.

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It could even work nicely making it 2vs2 with additional people being proportionally allocated up to 10vs10.
Or a 2vs2 in three rounds of 1 minute max each. As an example of such system, crimson days pvp in destiny 2 (2vs2 point victory system for kill to death ratios in 5 rounds) comes to mind as a very well received one.
In term of rewards, give 1 hex coin (or a tenth of hex coin) to winner and 500 shards to loser for repair costs. This way, you ensure participation and synergy with agent system.

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The game probably feels perfect though if you’re an illuminati pve player who loves cosmetics and watches every devstream while roaming discord and the forums.

But PvP and regular people ? Naaaah…

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I’m dragon not illuminati.

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The rewards in PVP don’t have to be huge, no need to rebalancing the game.

If the system is dynamic in the way @Real_SWorlder suggests it, the fact of doing PvP is fun enough.
A tenth of Hex for 3 rounds of 60 seconds and ~300 shards for loser seem great.

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@Sawo - I’m fully aware and agree that Shambalabingbong is not really what a PVPer would class as PVP. But for the sake of it being the only form in SWL - we have to make do with what we have until real PVP becomes a “Priority” and for want of a better word, on this occasion, i will be referring to it as PVP.

@Leogrim I don’t know what is more of an incentive to play, having nothing for a lose & something for a win Or the same reward for losing as a win? I feel that the current reward for losing is one of the sole reasons people used the zone for “Cliff jumping” to end the already very short match and made the whole point of trying to fight the other team pointless.

On the subject of rewards in SWL:
The whole of SWL rewards for missions are the same across the board. Bags and some shards are received, Starting with kingsmouth and it’s mere one bag to the multiple bags for missions in Tokyo. They don’t have the same as dungeons, raids or scenario offering distills. Which means Shambala is treated as a mission with an objective to achieve. That should be to win. You don’t get the rewards of other missions in SWL by picking the mission and then cancelling/pausing it. You actually have to complete it.

Really - these bags are kinda like the token system of TSW. Instead of receiving MoP’s and BB - we have bags which give us the mats to upgrade items with or sell. Just like we did in TSW. If lucky, you can get something valuable from the bags, making your venture that little bit more worth it, which is why i truly feel what is on offer for a win is completely acceptable and should remain as the standard for a win. But for a lose it should only offer shards. It doesn’t half the potential reward, since the idea of entering the zone is to win, your only goal is to gain what was already on offer. At least it would make the task of partaking in Shambala have a cause, and that is indeed to win. It should never have been trivialised nor made a redundant arena because of the rewards being the same for either outcome.

As for nobody playing it, well - that’s because IMO it was abused threefold. Once by TSW with the placement of signet bags as reward, second with the daily challenge of PVP and third after the move to SWL when it was infested with lemmings because of its lack of real rewarding for honest effort. The PVP community will be at hand to make this zone playable and enjoyable, holding PVP events etc. Something at present we can’t really do.

As for no guarantee of a win - I for one would be very glad that there was no skill that would guarantee me a win in a 10v10 match. PVP is meant to be unpredictable but it should have reason.

@Ezraell I agree in lowering the initial amount of players required for a match. The damage done to Shambala will mean it would take time for people to even want to return to a zone that’s had so many failings.
I also agree in increasing the time of a match. It’s far too short a time to do anything at all and would add to the overall meaningful aspect we should be trying to achieve.

@SwobyJ
@Real_SWorlder
I really don’t feel it needs anything else added to the current win pool. When you start adding things like Hex coins and such you then venture down the path Funcom took PVP in TSW.
They added PVP to the daily challenge list and in order for you to complete the full set of challenges, you HAD to do PVP. I felt that was wrong, it basically forced people who would have never considered PVP - to have to enter a zone and complete a few tasks, they of course got themselves killed in the process and the blame was then left at the foot of the PVP community for killing people who were just “Trying to complete their daily” - when all the PVPer was doing, was what they had been doing all along - killing people not on their team and defending a zone.

Funcom then added to Shambala the new Signets. Of course they were much needed and to get them you had two options, buy from AH or do Shambala - Again, this did create a wave of popularity with Shambala, which in turn led it to be Funcoms choice to bring that PVP zone over to SWL as it had proved to be, at that time, the most popular. But it was a false representation, as you can see - without those signets that were previously on offer in Shambala - it has turned barren. Couple this with the current reward for losing a match being the same as a win and you have yourself the main problem and that’s a lack of purpose, meaning and cause leading people to abandon it altogether.

Their are no Agents in PVP and i don’t feel offering Hex coins for winning would be the right thing to do. If anything Hex coins should be added to the caches as either possible loot or standard loot along with the current Fragments also gained. I think they are already available as loot in the Agent Booster packs? Someone would have to confirm as i’m not sure.

Now then - @BombShelley
I don’t quite know where to begin dear…
At present - there is already no point in playing “what passes for PVP” (Shambala) Not for anyone, whether you enjoy PVP or not. Which is why i started the thread and poll. To offer a solution: Starting at the base by addressing the issue of rewards gained for Win/Lose in an attempt to remove the futility of trying to win, when the new consensus was to sign up and throw yourself over the cliff to end it all…But still cash in a win.
That just doesn’t sit right with me.

I have already discussed in the PVP thread my ideas on how PVP could work for SWL, on a broader aspect, if the other 3 zones were to be introduced. But since Funcom have already stated that “PVP is currently not a prioroty” Then i have focused on something that would bring a sense of purpose and achievement in the smallest of manners. The rest is then up to the players of their own choice to play or not to play, but there should be no rewards for losing a Shambala match.

I’m not quite sure why you would think that what i have suggested is trying to force people to play PVP? When i am clearly, dead against the idea of forcing anybody to do PVP.

I have to reiterate that i do feel that for PVP to naturally develop people have to want to join it. But you shouldn’t need to tempt anybody into it by way of special rewards or extras added to the loot pool. IMO PVP rewards the inner self more, be it pride, ego, morale etc… Fun above all else and excitement.
It should also NEVER be added to any daily challenge. All it needed from the outset was the reward for losing not to have been the same as it is for winning. That might have spared us from the suicide cults.
having said that - I am also aware that since TSW had a much more lucrative reward on offer for a win of Shambala, some may feel it should be like for like, but then the two should not be compared.

But is it going to be too little too late for Shambala?
Leaving things for so long…

I have to ask - Was Shambala present in SWL during BETA phase and did it offer the same rewards for Win/Lose as it does now?
If so - then why was this not picked up on or addressed in the beginning? There would have been no lemmings.

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Funny how no skill can guarantee a win, but your own teammates jumping off the cliff from the start to farm more bags can almost always guarantee you will lose. When we’ve been outnumbered like that before, I think we only won twice under those conditions.

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Whilst i admire the purity at play behind your thinking, i guess i was just trying to give a solution to the incentive of playing pvp and to provide a solution to be able to advance by only doing pvp.

The current problem with Shambala loot wise is that it is frankly inefficient: If the queue was instantly popping, let say you would do 7 Shambalas in 15 minutes (assuming only the win side earn something and the lose side don’t), you’d get 7 bags. Which is 7x250xp=1750xp at most. Which is like a sixth or a seventh of what you would get for the same amount of time in e6 scenarios (not even going to e10). Moreover, that would be the only place but for simple missions, where the loot doesnt scale up with your IP. I understand that you are aiming to bring only pvper by vocation in and to turn people on the edge to love pvp. The thing is it would be doable right now but it is not happening (no pop, no event, …). Would it happen better if the looot was cancelled for the losing party. Idk.

More generally, the assumption underlying this discussion seems to be that the fact of having good rewerd for pvp would make come ppl that do not like pvp just for the loot and then they would be upset because they would be killed repeatedly. Well, if you cancel the loot they wont even have something to buy the repair cost. An aggravating factor being that the queues between pve and pvp are in the same tool now. As a result, if you queue for pvp you can’t queue for anything less (ie. if someting else pop, that will cancel your queue for pvp).

All in all, as far as i can agree the winning side shoudl take it all, it doesnt really matter if nobody queues like it is the case now. So assuming no cahnge in quorum to trigger a pop or no change in bettering the reward, no event organized around Shambala or else and free keys weekend or else encouraging people to do PVE content everyother weekend, i cannot see how the filed is going to fill.

the first step towards having the new zone back would be to demonstrate to the devs and FC there is something of an interest by a sizable portion of the player population for pvp. As it is, with no Shambala happening, i don’t see that happening. One of the reason it doesnt pop is the blatant lack of balanced loot compared ot the rest of the lfg content ( how many casual players would actually leave a nyr raid or a lair party to come pvp given the difference in loot? probably 1 every 100).

that said, pelase go on pushing your ideas as i think this whole discussion is a good way to show people are interested in pvp and it would be an invaluable addition to player retention. Thansk a lot for being so active :slight_smile:

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Thank you for your input.

Firstly,
I am not aware of this but does Shambala incur a cost to repair gear on death? PVP never had this in TSW. Deaths in PVP did not wear out your gear, unless you took cyanide.

I have to say that while i still believe the reward is adequate for a win, i would expect people to have already gained decent set of gear to head into Shambala with, The current paths to upgrading are through raids, dungeons, scenarios. PVP shouldn’t be about using it’s rewards to upgrade gear. It doesn’t have to reward the same items, things, distills or rewards as elsewhere, but it should have a standard
TBH Shambala is not suitable for such things in SWL. Nor would any PVP, The token system we previously had in TSW was fine, but here, SWL expects you to upgrade using the viable methods already in place. You really wouldn’t want to use the items from the bags to upgrade anything - unless you were levelling a new set of gear. The free keys and bonus weekends are nice, but are limited and not all the time - There can be balance between both elements of PVE & PVP.

As for players - the choice is and should always remain with the individual if they want to partake in PVP and should not be forced. PVP events held by the PVP community will be what helps Shambala along to be better than what it is now, There is a lot of negative feeling that needs turned around, and we have to start somewhere. Which is why i feel if The Chronicle was to make a return, then it makes the whole point of “Winning” seem much more meaningful. But i guess we would be waiting for PVP to become a priority before they even contemplate making even the smallest of changes

If you build it - they will come.

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Hm good point i need to double check :thinking:

Ah on this one i was more thinking gear path. But yeah, you are right, if we dont go back to a token system that is going to be difficult. From my point of view, pvp should be a viable path to gear up. But i might be a bit optimistic here :sunglasses: in a number of games gearing through pvp is totally viable and for me it helps to keep the momentum of new blood and so forth. moreover, it would be a very good example to follow for our brand new agents to know how to treat ennemies on the battlefiled… However, i can see that it may be asking for a bit much at this point. That said, you need to dream big to do something slightly smaller.

I dont think there is that much negative feeling. I was chatting in general in Sc a bit earlier today and on about 10 ppl in the discussion, 6 said they would like pvp, 2 didn’t mind and 2 said they were too shy for pvp. Please note i wasn’t forcing them to talk about pvp, the topic just came up. The bottomline is there wasn’t any bad feeling around.

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its hard enough to get people into shamby as it is, if losing didn’t give the reward it already does most wont even go. I think another option was needed in the poll, creating an extra incentive for winning. like a currency from winning that you could use to enter a champions tourney that gives an award chest that’s on a weekly timer.

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Adding a chance to drop an Agent for winners would probably make activity pick up quite a bit. Especially if it was a better drop rate than other activities. :joy:

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I believe that all participants of this discussion will agree : your idea is unfortunate.
It seems you did not bother to read about the real concerns of implementing a balanced system not a free-cookies stand

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Hey, I didn’t claim it was a good or balanced idea :slight_smile:

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oh my days, No bloody NPC’s shall drop in PVP land, i have 3 already (one of them free like everyone else) and i got the other two without trying very hard at all, and you can only have 3 doing missions at a time so i’ve filled my slots with people, doing things, getting…whatever they get.

I like this, but i was trying to avoid the need to add anything at all since Funcom have said they are very very busy and asking them to create a new currency just for PVP might have been a bit much - but it’s a totally viable option i completely agree.
While it may be hard at the moment to get people into Sham, i’m hoping that with just a small gesture of altering the differences between a win/lose it would stop the lemmings and return the zone to a deathmatch between opponents and not a suicide ring.

In the beginning i was also too shy for PVP, i ventured into Fusang and thought it too large to navigate and would get lost, i saw people running around and got killed, so i left and tried Eldorado, It was easier to see what your goal was in ED - you basically as a noob follow the crowd and learn, eventually after gearing through using Eldorado i returned to Fusang, saw people i knew from ED and stayed, making Fusang my daily reason for logging in to TSW.
Until they dropped the filthbomb of “no more updates for TSW” - The bad feeling of PVP here in SWL is that there is none, and what is on offer has been ruined by the fact that it has no winning outcome so to get the loot all you have to do is sign up and die as quick as you can, that is not PVP - so it’s left a bad feeling of
“oh no, not shamballache, urgh” - it’s made it laughable and ridiculed - it may take some time to recover that, but a tweak on the win/lose outcome - would make it all the easier.