The % problem with negative stat thrall perks

So I did a little analysis of the thrall perks today, it’s a bit subjective in spots (in order to make a few generalizations) but I think I see why the negative stat perks are such a problem.

To start off, I’m restricting this to upper factions for the XP numbers and to Votary thralls for the perks examples.

  • To get from level 0-10 (1st perk) only requires a total of about 2.7 million XP, which is about 13% of total XP needed to level a thrall to 20.
  • To get from level 10-15 (2nd perk) requires a total of about 6 million XP, which is about 30% of total XP needed to level a thrall to 20.
  • To get from level 15-20 (3rd perk) requires a total of about 11.4 million XP, which is a whopping 57% of total XP needed to level a thrall to 20.

Now, if we assume that the list provided in @Firespark81’s video detailing human perks is correct, and (here’s the subjective part) make a few assumptions on the range of their stats at a given level, then looking at a Votary Fighter you end up with a potential of:

  • 19 choices for the level 10 perk, 5 of which contain negatives (26% chance for negatives)
  • 22 choices for the level 15 perk, 10 of which contain negatives (45% chance for negatives)
  • 22 choices for the level 20 perk, 10 of which contain negatives (45% chance for negatives)

Personally, I’d much rather get a negative at 10 when your commitment to that thrall is still fairly low, rather than investing the huge amount of time that it takes to get from 15-20 and basically having a 50/50 shot at getting screwed.

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I agree with you, but I also think the reality is that optimizing thrall perks is really just a player preference/obsession with little “real world” impact on gameplay. Any of the top-end T4 Cimmerian or Votary fighter thralls will get it done, even if all three perks were negative. Even with low vitality, one of those thralls with a decent weapon and armor, and you with a stack of healing arrows, means there is absolutely no content that cannot be completed with that thrall, no matter how “gimped” one may think they are.

I think this has turned into more of a meta-game of “how buff can I make my thrall” rather than practical applicability. If any combination of perks made these thralls actually unusable (i.e.: can result in them getting one- or two-shot by a world boss, for example) then I think there’d be a real issue. But all end-game thralls are so over-the-top powerful, even the gimpy ones are worth an entire group of players in PvE (and in PvP, they’ve always been little more than speedbumps, given their brain-damaged AI).

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If there is a goal to attain perfect stats there will be gamers ready to invest untold hours. I agree the impact is minimal, but there will always be 30 second TTK for a world boss vs a 35 second TTK that tickles my inner-OCD. I’m going to strive for the latter.

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I would much rather get a negative at level 10, but for a different reason: there’s still a chance it could be “fixed”.

The worst is getting a negative at level 20. That’s where things are cemented and set in stone. Even if you got +2 to strength from leveling, a -3 from a perk will still result in a net negative, which makes you feel like you should have left the thrall at level 19.

It’s psychology. Yes, the -1 to -5 net result from a perk might not translate into anything really noticeable in combat, but that’s not what people are objecting to. Players simply hate being arbitrarily punished by the system for using the system. It’s irrational, but humans are like that.

Of course, not all players are like that. Some people enjoy gambling in general. As I’ve said repeatedly, I don’t think this is what videogames should strive for.

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To clarify, I wasn’t trying to start yet another thread about the problem with the perk system where some people end up expressing the incorrect opinion that it’s just fine and others express the correct opinion that it’s garbage, we’ve had enough of those.

This is about the fact that at the two hardest perk levels to achieve (15/20) it’s basically a 50/50 shot that you’re going to get a negative number in something, which seems a bit excessive. The lowest chance to get a negative occurring at the perk with the lowest effort and then once you put the work in to get the ones that require serious grind, I just don’t think they sat back and looked at which perks were actually going to be available at those levels and realized that half of the options reduced the stat values.

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I definitely agree with you that it’s a poorly implemented system. We can see the rough outline of something that has potential, but what they threw out there was most definitely half-baked. I seriously doubt they did any kind of analysis resembling what you’ve done here. In fact, I doubt it even crossed their minds.

Most likely they just added the negative perks to “mix things up” without any statistical evaluation of its impact. Broadly speaking, there seems to have been a lot of “seat of the pants” design going on with CE, with very little feedback from players on the front-end.

After doing my initial spreadsheet on the health/armor values on T4 thralls per faction, I began to wonder if maybe they just didn’t use Excel in Norway.

But yeah that’s pretty much my point, the ranges they have seem to be set in a certain way that in the upper levels a lot of the beneficial perks get excluded from the upper factions since even with a 0 starting value and a 50% chance growth rate, most of them are out of range by level 15 anyway. I just don’t think the negative values should have that high of a percentage chance of dropping at the upper perk levels.

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Remember how rushed the update was. They did the best they could with the constraints they had. Not that I’m saying that “the best they could” is the same thing as “good” :wink:

So in an effort to explain this a little better, I fiddled with the data and the way it is displayed (this technique is used in Corporate America and often referred to as “Management”).

Here are the perk tables, split up into different categories. The Level columns show whether an upper Faction thrall can achieve that perk.

For starters, there are the perks with level locked requirements:

These are mostly a good thing but decrease in likelihood at the higher tier perks.

Then there are the bad/great perks, which start to become available as you level but never end:

These include the negative values, which compound at the higher levels, so that as you get to the later perks you have a higher chance of getting a negative value perk.

Finally, there are 2 categories of unachievable perks, the Vitality set:

Which are mostly unachievable on Fighters (except the Cimmerian Berserker who spawns with Archer stats) and unachievable on most Archers as well, since Base Health is generally over 3k but under 5k.

Also, the almost completely unachievable perks:

These are stat-locked, but since they aren’t available before level 15 and even if that Faction spawns with a 0 they will likely have over a value of 10 at level 15 there is only a very slim chance you will ever see them.

Hm. But they are achievable in reality: for Bearers for example and for other Thralls with very poor growth percent for this stat (less than 50%). Those perks can fix such a Thrall.

It’s not entirely accurate to say you’ve got a 50/50 chance of losing stats. Firstly you have to distinguish between losing stats you want and stats you don’t. Losing survival for strength on a fighter or losing strength for accuracy on an archer is pretty fantastic. A lot of this is also manipulated by what your thralls general stats are, so when you adjust for not only flat positive rolls but also the negative rolls you WANT, it may be closer to 60/40 or even more favorable depending.

If you’re only giving your fighters gruel, they don’t level the other stats (agility, survival, etc) enough to put them into the rolling range for various beneficial perks, which also shrinks the available pool of perks TOTAL, which increases the chances of getting the perk you DON’T want since typically the ‘negative’ perks are determined by the stat they take away, meaning a fighter with lots of strength will always roll (potentially) for a perk that removes strength.

The winning strategy then is to level up a variety of stats, and you can tell which thralls will have a higher chance of being good stat/perkwise at level 1 based on their chances to level secondary stats. A cannibal brute with 100% chance to level survival/agility will have a much higher chance of getting good combat perks compared to say a dogs of the desert archer with only fish fed to him.

Also, those unattainable vitality perks are pretty easy to get with cannibal brutes. If you can’t tell, I’ve grown to love those little buggers. Cheap and effective. Their base health is so low, but they get 400 hp or so (its really 389 or around there) per vitality point, so you can powerlevel a few (they’re also in the fastest levelling class) and one of them eventually gets it. My first brute wound up getting 2 vitality perks, he wound up having over 14,000 health.

It can get confusing but you can really play with the system as it is. If you see their chance to level secondary stats is fairly low, you can just go for level 10/15 for that thrall and leave them as base defense/hide farmers, then save the gambling for thralls that look better from the start and play it by ear as you level. Really in pvp settings you shouldn’t be levelling too many thralls anyways besides a few bunker busters since honestly I think your time is better spent doing literally ANYTHING else, given how frantic pvp can be, and on pve the minor stat differences don’t translate into anything meaningful, so there’s no sense in losing sleep over that either.

I’ve said my piece about how I think losing 3 strength isn’t really the end of the world in the other threads, so I wont rehash that here. Basically though, I like the system. When you finally get everything down and understood and invest wisely, you can obtain a thrall stronger than the other thralls on the server. I brought my raid thrall with me just a few days ago and watched him eat the garrison of another base we attacked. My previous raid attempt saw my thrall get melted. It was good to see the investment and strategy pay off in the end.

I wouldn’t mind seeing some of the penalties and positives maybe changed a bit on how they’re rolled, but it also kind of balances thralls a little. You can’t just powerlevel strength alone without taking into account your thrall’s general balance. You have to invest in better food to level more than one stat, not just stick 1 stack of gruel in their pocket and powerlevel. Maybe even use different kinds of foods throughout the levelling process. It turns the optimal thrall into a real treasure and asset, rather than a guaranteed “I caught a relic hunter and now I’ve got an endgame thrall” as before.

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You’re missing the point. As I stated, I am only talking about the top four Factions here. And even those that have a 0 to start in a skill will end up rolling out of the <10 points required to get the +5 in the ones I am saying are unachievable by 15, most definitely by 20. They will also definitely be in the range of the 9-99 stats (undesirable) by 15 or 20.

Also, leveling any stats that you don’t want (via food) you’d be putting yourself in a much worse position anyway, as nearly every stat will be over 11 by level 19, but if it’s a stat you don’t want (Accuracy on a fighter) and you enhance it you put yourself in range of getting the +10 at 20 that you wouldn’t want instead of not letting it climb and avoiding that outcome.

In addition, I completely disagree about not leveling your thralls in PvP. I’ve raided since the update, and a few level 20 Votary Fighters can shred unleveled thralls in no time, whereas leveled thralls provide a much better defense.

The point is that the ranges required, even on a thrall with 0 in a stat and as low as a 50% growth chance, make the better perks unachievable at higher levels, and the level caps make them unachievable at lower levels. While I think they intended to have a larger selection of better perks available with a few “penalty” perks thrown in for “interesting” RNG, the restrictions they put on them cause a loss of a set (+5) and allow the other sets (-3) to be pulled at levels they probably shouldn’t.

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Nah bud, you missed MY point. People are talking about how thralls are hitting level 20 and are suddenly becoming useless, but if you look at the level ranges required and how the system actually works, you can tell whether or not a thrall is worth investing in at level 1 based on those levelling stats. The majority of the “bricked” (aka, barely suboptimal but still 100% functional and valuable) thralls are these thralls people are just slapping down and levelling straight out of the wheel. The system isn’t punishing you for using it, it’s punishing you for NOT using it.

If you know a thrall doesn’t have optimal levelling stats, then you should stop levelling it at 10/15. If it looks like it can go the distance, you chance it to 20, and even if it gets a +10 accuracy bump, that’s better than a -5 str +8 accuracy bump at the same tier, and gambling is part of the system.

What every conversation is missing here is that Funcom actually WANTED the RNG. It’s not unintended. With the new thrall cap, they don’t want you to easilly farm up an entire 100 thrall army of nothing but the absolute top of the line perfected 14k hp purge fighters. Thralls are an investment now and that means they’re not all going to be perfect, that’s all there is to it. If you pay attention to how the numbers break down, you save yourself a lot of misery.

As for the PVP bit, I still disagree there. You only need 1 or 2 good thralls for combat. Defensively, thralls just aren’t good enough to invest time into. I just raided some clan the other day, they had a purge fighter in full godbreakers. Health pool must have been in the 5 digits, this guy didn’t take ANY damage, and with the food in its inventory it healed everything we did so quickly his healthbar didn’t move an inch. Dude was a monster, hit like an absolute truck. So what did we do?

As soon as we had time, we lured him off to a corner of the base, put 10 bombs under him, and blew the foundation he was standing in. Bam. Your top of the line perfectly levelled godbreaker geared sword of crom purge fighter is stuck in a hole and cant move for the rest of the raid. In the time it took to level him (lets say its 3-4 hours, to be generous) you could:

  • Farm all 3 brimstone caves + brimstone lake for 7-8k brimstone
  • Do a crystal run
  • Kill some demon boss for a few hundred demon blood
  • Do a few tar runs (jhebbal dungeon + savannah) for a good 9k tar

And now you’ve got 100+ bombs, probably more. Just saying when you look at the opportunity cost, it’s not usually worth it to level too many thralls. Defensively they don’t usually wind up doing much since their AI is so poor and offensively you can only bring one, and in that raid I promise you the few hundred dragonpowder we brought was INFINITELY more valuable than the 20-30 fully levelled thralls they had. Even with a spirited defense and all those bodies, it was easy enough to just block their thralls or stick them in holes.

But im getting sidetracked, here’s the TL;DR:

TL;DR: Your thrall doesn’t have to be perfect, Funcom doesn’t WANT every thrall to be perfect, and if you know how the thrall system works you can ensure a much better success rate for levelling your thralls before you even take them outside and start spending time on them.

And just between you and me, I give most of my fighters bows as well as melee weapons anyways, since 90% of the time in base defense thralls get stuck on the dumbest things and even if their ranged damage isn’t insane I want them to interrupt healing and cripple raiders at least. I see thralls get stuck on stairs, stuck on foundations, stuck on nothing at all. Having some extra accuracy on a fighter thrall is the opposite of a bad thing sometimes.

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And just a sidenote, you mentioned that a thrall with 50% chance to level some other stat likely wont hit the 11+ ranges or so, that’s not true either. If you’re using the split foods (7% to what you want, 7% to secondary) it’s possible. All thralls have a flat 40% chance to level a stat twice when it levels, with many thralls having a higher chance, Funcom said so in their thrall stream. That information hasn’t been parsed out yet, but I can tell you in my experience certain thralls I’ve been farming seem to be getting way more +2s per level compared to others.

So… grab thralls with a higher chance for +2s, give them a variety of useful foods while levelling (maybe split your food into agility + your main stat for the first 10/15 levels since thrall armor agility scaling is absolutely nuts), and only really invest in a thrall if they’ve got the proper stat percentages at level 1. I personally love it when a system rewards you for learning it. If you put the time in, you get a lot out of it.

And for the record, a lot of people are saying survival perks and other perks like it are useless, but I gotta say - the 2 biggest ways to cheese a thrall in combat are bleeds and poison. Fighting a thrall that has high survival and agility these days is a nightmare. Took me a good 40 poison arrows (with bleeds) to kill this one fighter thrall left outside my base the other day, and he wasn’t even fully levelled/armored. Lots of people are discounting agility/survival perks as “AW MAN, IT WASNT STRENGTH? GAAAARRRBAAGE! Let me knock you out so I can put you in the COMPOST HEAP where you BELONG!!! >:((” but the more I fiddle with it, the more okay I am with those secondaries.

When my level 20 fighter thrall gets a fat increase to survival or agility, I don’t really feel cheated. Maybe that’s why I’m not really feeling all the kvetching going on over the system. Half of the “undesirable” perks/stats I see people whining about are things that are actually really useful. The ONLY perks that someone can justifiably be upset over getting is the -3 to your primary +8 or whatever to some secondary you don’t want, but you can GREATLY reduce the chances of getting this as I’ve said, and even if you get some accuracy it’s just not the end of the world man. A 60 strength fighter thrall going to 55 doesn’t mean anything. It’s not a satisfying end to the levelling process but it isn’t the end of the world either.

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I agree with your overall point that people should pay attention to growth chances right from the start, which is something I realized only after I already leveled a couple of thralls. I’m betting most people are in the same boat as I was – they don’t realize how random the growth chances can be.

However, there are a few points where I disagree with you.

The phrase about the system punishing you for using it is the one I use frequently, and I would have hoped that by now it was clear what I meant: getting a negative perk at level 20 can be (and often is) a punishment. If my fighter gets -5 str and +8 acc at level 20, it’s a net negative.

Is my thrall suddenly useless? No. Should this happen? Well, let’s get to the next point:

At this point in the whole discussion, this just makes me want to say “yeah, screw that”. I understand the use of RNG in games. And the only games where unconstrained RNG is considered completely normal are the games of luck and chance.

I understand that it’s easier and cheaper to use RNG to balance certain things. And that’s fine. I don’t like it, but I understand why it happens and it can be acceptable. But when people point out two completely reasonable things – that certain stats are absolutely useless for certain thralls, and that getting a negative perk at level 20 can result in a net negative that cannot be fixed – and that gets a bunch of other people to fight this observation tooth and nail, that is something I can’t understand.

So in general, I agree with you and I find @LostInTim’s math a bit confusing and suspect at times (more on that in a separate post), but I really wish people would stop portraying the criticism of lazy game design as something unreasonable :wink:

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I have put down ~15-20 thralls after the update. I leveled 5. NONE had 100% anywhere. Highest was 90% (which got the -5 STR at lvl20).

I can try and get a perfect Erii, as I have >60 of him. But I dont have that many Dalinisa to waste. So I level them up.
Same with Female Cims and RHTS… There are other things the reason, why I level them up :smirk: :grimacing:

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I only realized the extent of the randomness when I placed two Dalinsias and one had 70% str and 85% vit chance, while the other had something like 45% or 50% str and 70% vit (don’t remember the exact numbers, can’t check because I “recycled” her).

I don’t need 100%, I’m fine with 80% or 85% :stuck_out_tongue:

My one Dalinisa which I leveled had 80% in vit and str. All perks were either small vit perks or vit+agility perk :confused:
She still has 56STR (with a gear which grants her +8 STR)…

Let’s do some math, shall we?

For this example we’ll use a volcano fighter, which starts with 15/3/10/2/15.

At level 10, your only choice of perks (due to level restrictions) are the “Level 0-10” set (+1/2/3 to all stats) which are good, the “Level 0-15” set (+3/+3 to stats, should probably include Thick Skull but doesn’t and shouldn’t include Relentless but does) which are good, the “None” set (+3 to a stat) which are good, and the “STAT 9-99” set (-3/+5) which could be good if you got -Acc or could be bad if you got -Str.

Note that in the 9-99 set:

  1. You are eligible for the -Str and -Surv perks at spawn
  2. There are 2 -Str perks and 2 -Agi perks, but only 1+Str reward
  3. Even at a 50% chance to increase you will likely end up with 9 or higher Agility because 50% of 10 is 5, and 40% of 5 is 2, so you should average 7 points and plus the 3 you get at spawn you will likely have 10 or higher Agility without food buffing it
  4. You might be in the range for the negative Accuracy perk, but since you only get 2 at spawn and assuming the same averages that would only put you at 9 so you might also miss it.
  5. Of this set, 4 are a bad outcome since you lose Agility or Strength, while only 1 is a good outcome.

Chances are tho, at 10 you will get a decent perk, since the desirable outcomes outweigh the undesirable outcomes by quite a bit.

At level 15, you have lost the “Level 0-10” set and have picked up a second set of “9-99” perks with a -5/+8 chance, and while there are 2 -Acc perks there is now a -5 Vit perk, which is not something you want on any thrall. So you’ve lost the ability to gain 3 good perks but picked up the chance for 3 bad ones and 2 good. By level 15 you will almost definitely have a 9 in each stat, and in no way could you be over the 99.

You really aren’t eligible for the “STAT 3/5-10” set, since you lost the ability for +5 Survival, Strength, and Vitality at spawn (by being at 10 or higher) and by 15 you would have gained an average of 10.5 to every stat (15 x 50% = 7.5, 7.5 x 40% = 3), so unless you rolled a -5 to Accuracy, you would always be well over the 10 point barrier regardless of what you boosted with food, even if you were at a 50% chance of growth. So the only possible perk you could even get from this set is +5 Accuracy, which doesn’t hurt but isn’t really a good outcome either.

Notice so far that the % increase of any stat has not at all affected what you will get (we’re assuming 50% in any stat with no food boost) except possibly Accuracy so I guess you would recommend boosting Accuracy via food on a fighter?

At level 20 you lost the “Level 0-15” set, which were all good perks, in order to pick up the “11-99” set, which you will always be in range of because you are gaining an average of 14 points in any given stat so you should be well over the 11 but well below the 99 cap.

Still failing to see how the % chance for increase, boosted or not, has any effect since you very rarely get anything under 50%, but if you want to believe that it does, feel free.

I didn’t mention the perks that give you +15 Vitality, since a volcano fighter has a base health of 4950 so isn’t eligible for the first 2 and might roll the third but it’s pretty rare, given the sheer number of options you still have at level 20.

TLDR: Your chance to get a bad perk increases at higher perk levels, while your chances at a good one are pretty much cut in half, and the % chance to increase don’t make a difference in the perks you get, food boosted or otherwise.

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I get the distinct feeling that whenever I participate in discussions about the perk system, the other person is actually just skimming over my post waiting for their opportunity to tell me about how their fighter thrall got accuracy.

So, let’s bring everything into perspective. Your argument revolves around the idea that there are GOOD and BAD perks. I made an argument against this, it was ignored. You said the chances for getting a BAD perk are 50/50, which is false, but my argument was ignored. I even made the case for having accuracy on a combat thrall, which is something that can be very useful in real attainable scenarios, this argument was ignored. I mentioned that we don’t actually know all of the statistics under the hood, that different chances for levelling and different thralls will level at different speeds not just from an exp perspective but also their chances for +2 to stats. Ignored, as well. All of my points about stat manipulation, the importance of varied foods (to which your response is “AM I TO PUT ACCURACY ON A FIGHTER?” - I actually laughed out loud, it’s insane how fixated you are on this one point…), so, ignored. Finally, I made points justifying the existence of less desirable secondary stats and how important survival/agility/etc actually are with the new combat system, and this too was ignored.

Basically, my entire argument went in one ear and out the other so you could respond with “BuT mY fIgHtEr ThRaLl GoT aCcUrAcY”. But, sure, let’s “do some math”.

Firstly, it’s kind of ridiculous how you structured the argument. My point was that you can use foods to balance your stats to put you in various perk ranges… so you grab a jack of all trades that starts in range of most perks and argue “see? thralls dont need food, it’s pointless!”. Yeah, a volcano fighter wont need to buff their survival, but a cimmerian might. You still might want to buff accuracy and agility, you still have stats to round out.

But really, I’m going to ignore all the math you did, and here’s why:

  1. We don’t know all the numbers under the hood. Chances for +2s, or whether or not certain perks are weighted, or the real chances for thralls to get certain perks based on faction. It’s publicly said that it’s all identical, but I’ll get to this in a second.

  2. Using 1 type of thrall faction and assuming a 50% chance to level stats isn’t useful. You CAN get 40% chances to level thralls, and it doesn’t invalidate the importance of having rounded stats to roll for different perks.

And the biggest reason why I wont be listening to your “math” is that it doesn’t pan out in game. Out of pure curiosity, I spawned in 20 daicus’ in singleplayer and levelled them to 20. No food, no nothing. Want to know how many got -5 strt +8 accuracy? Two. The vast majority of them got improvements to their stats at level 20, 1 got a -str +survival (which, at 60 strength, there’s an argument to be made for this even being good). 1 Even got hallowed. Curiously, nearly every single one of them got a -x to agility +x to something else perk, which is why I say we don’t know if certain perks are weighted heavier in certain factions vs others, or even between thralls within a single faction. The few thralls that got -str + accuracy also had low % chance to level accuracy, while the fighters with -acc + str had higher chances to level accuracy, which supports my argument. With some decent food usage you can maximize the rolls on your thralls.

And for what it’s worth, even the -vitality +whatever perks are still nice. For thralls that don’t scale very well with HP, trading a little health for a boost to damage is actually super nice. Relic hunters, volcano fighters, anything with a solid starting health pool can really make the case for sacrificing health for damage, so even this “bad” perk is good in the right situation.

And ALL around, CURRENT thralls are MUCH stronger than the old thralls. With the ability to directly mold their stats and buff them with food, armor AND weapon stats, a modern fighter thrall is still a HUGE upgrade from an old fighter thrall, so even with a suboptimal perk you’re getting better performance compared to what you got before.

But, ultimately… none of my arguments got addressed, and your response is built on math that isn’t actually supported by the data or by practical outcomes, and all of this headache is revolving around the idea that it’s bad for a fighter to have accuracy when that’s not even always the case. This is why I dipped out of the last thread on this same topic, it’s absolutely mad. I’ll keep talking myself till I’m blue in the face, and the conversation will always end with

“yes, yes… BUT!”

and I’ll sigh, here it comes.

“my FIGHTER thrall…”

Oh fudge he’s gonna blow

“GOT”

Get down!

“ACCUUUUURAAAAAAAAAAACYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH”

And the conversation returns to square 1. Funcom wants top tier best in slot thralls to be hard to come by, and this system guarantees that. Nobody says you should get a sword of crom every time you kill a skeleton boss, but now everyone wants every thrall to be a best in slot top tier fighter with 100 strength and 100 vitality for no reason and no downsides with absolutely no hiccups along the way. We’re not even discussing all the hidden damage modifiers we don’t have access to. A cannibal brute with 40 strength hits half as hard as a relic hunter with 5 strength, so you can’t even easily tell what the real difference is in stats from looking at the raw numbers.

If you want a top tier thrall for any role, you have to invest. You need to make smart choices on which ones you want to level, how you level them, what you feed them and when. Your success also depends on the type of thrall, where you got them, and which thrall they are, and if you put the time in to test it out and figure out how the system works your chances of getting decent rolls and avoiding bad perks is significantly higher.

With all that said, you may now reply with “BUT MUH FIGHTER THRAAAAAAAALLLL”. I’m dipping since it’s clear we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, since the literal one and only part anyone considers is “muh accuracy”.

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