What is PVP in 2020

And there we have it.

Someone believes a level one with no feats or attributes or weapons is wrecking face on a horse.

Good job people, good job!

I won’t speak overall, but for a game that i have thousands of hours played, Dota. When dota 1 started, no one knew absolutely anything about the game. People would make stupid items and spread rumors that “it does this thing and its good”. It was fun. Every person would choose their items based on their judgement and have fun with it. learning new mechanics, new strategies, exploring the vast amount of heros, skills and items.

After a couple of years most things were already clear to everyone, the foundations of the game were already set. Every character had a default functional build, and nothing else was better than the bread and butter (of course, on higher levels there is the situational side of the game, when you build things to counter something else) but in essence, most strategies were already figured out.

Now, what happens when you try to make something out of the ordinary in a dota 2 match? You get steamrolled. Because everyone else has this “correct build advantage” against you, and assuming that its two equally skilled teams/players, you lose. Thats not fun, at least for most people. If you are different and enjoy losing all the time, cool, but thats not the human nature Imo.

Taking this back into CE, it basically means that everyone not using the “default functional strategy” is at disadvantage with a decent chance of not enjoying it, and thats not good for your playerbase.

Aside from everything that was already said about horses X dismounted players, there is one more thing i would like to add.

Horse fights Dismounted player. In this scenario its +1 for horse.

But the terrain is not good, you can’t ride and fight there. What happens next, dismounted player wins the fight? no, the mounted player dismounts and they fight equally. Thats not a drawback, its just making an even ground for both people. I can’t use that as an argument to say that horses are at “disadvantage”.

what is the +1 for dismounted player, on CE? A dismounted player cannot /spawn horse_01 and fight at least equally. A dismounted player currently does not have anything that puts him at advantage, only equal footing, on very specific scenarios. Why? it was already discussed that horses take no herculean effort to have, so the reason for them to be “balanced” is not there. Where is it?

Because of this, we can either define that horses are a definitive advantage and have no reason to not be used every possible moment (which is awful) or come up with an argument for dismounted being better than horses on a reliable basis…good luck with that.

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He was too focused on being clever and ended up not being fair. You can tell by comparing his post to yours. Yours is simple and concise. His includes little gems like this one:

So let’s stop wasting time with his rhetoric and focus on your refreshingly logical argument.

Yes, the horse is an additional element in combat and it has a certain additional cost. It would be reasonable to expect the counter to have some cost, too.

Thing is, I don’t see anyone suggesting a no-cost counter. So the only one giggling at his own ingenuity here is the guy who set up a straw man argument to attack, instead of simply suggesting – like you did – that maybe we should talk about the cost of the counter and how to balance it properly.

That’s a much more interesting discussion, precisely because balance is not the same as symmetry. Sure, you can make the counter have the same cost as what it counters, like you keep suggesting:

And there are many ways to make it cost as much as a horse, not just mirroring the exact same requirements

But you don’t really have to make it cost as much as the horse. That would only be necessary if the “reward” for having the counter was the same as “reward” for having the horse. In other words, if the counter is just as powerful as the horse. Yet it doesn’t have to be exactly as powerful.

Then again, I guess it’s harder to sit down and toss a few suggestions along those lines, than it is to simply belittle those asking for a counter. One of those two actually requires imagination and reasoning.

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This is a fair assessment. I’m not quoting the whole thing, but over all I can’t disagree with the post as a whole.

This. And this is why I responded a bit facetiously to SirDaveWolf. Everything a non-mounted player works for, a mounted player has worked for too. But they also did the work for the mount.

So while I agree that there is an issue with mounts being the end-all be all of open ground combat. I cannot rightfully say they need a heavy nerf, or a counter needs to be easily available.

A counter needs to be available, and it should require the same amount of skill and effort as a horse does. ON TOP of learning ground combat, and equipping your character.

At no point should it be equip this on your hotbar and giggle as you hard counter the mounted player and think you’re clever for it.

That’s why I said we need to be serious about this. Unfortunately many are not. Its quite telling when I’ve even said a few times that I don’t like the current system and would like to see a fix, but because I don’t agree with them 100% that there should be an easy hard counter that makes mounted combat useless, that they go pretty damn close to personal attacks. Instead of engaging in an actual discussion that could produce results.

I’m not surprised though. I had this same issue 2 years ago when archery was messed up. They want to let their emotions run the discussion instead of getting real results. And judging by the ‘imma just quit the game’ posts. Its another ‘Funcom Bad’ set of responses anyway.

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Though in nearly every case, the person making the suggestion admits that it is either a bad suggestion or not ideal. So I don’t hold it against them. And this is only within this thread. Not the many others on the subject.

Here’s what you need to do. You need to stop getting wrapped up around the tone of the arguments or the use of simple hyporbole. You keep trying to prove me wrong on principle, even when you agree with me, simply because you feel insulted or someone else could get insulted. If you keep doing that, you’re never going to get anywhere with me in these discussions. So make a decision, either deal with it. Ignore me. Or keep getting your feelings hurt.

We could agree to disagree on the matter of tone and have a discussion. Or you can be upset. That’s your choice. I’ve already made mine.

Get me a hammer for that nail.

Please, do tell me what to do, I can’t wait to hear it :smiley:

Right, so my two options are to ignore you or “get my feelings hurt”?

I think I’ll go with a third one: when you write some ridiculously distorted argument to point out how clever you are and how dumb everyone else is, I’ll point it out, people might have a laugh, and then some of us move on to discussing the matter at hand. :wink:

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Stop. Just stop. If you would read carefully, you would see that my post has nothing to do with what you wrote.

You are stating that getting a horse ready for PvP is an additional and tedious task. The only grindy aspect of this task is leveling it. But this can be combined with tasks that you have to do nonetheless. So it’s not an “extra exclusive” thing to do.

If you would put a special counter in the game, for example increasing the stamina damage of the Ancient Lemurian Spear towards horses, then I would have to grind for the scales, which I never needed before, because I can make star metal weapons. In fact, I could then combine the horse grind with the grind for this counter horse weapon.

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Guess we’ll lock another thread then. You made that choice, so here we go again. I have no issue being the bad guy, but are you willing to participate in another? We’ll see.

Not a solution (and not a PVP player, so take it as coming from a point of ignorance) - but how much difference would it make if the saddles were more thoroughly differentiated?

I’m suggesting something like, the scout saddles give speed and maneuverability, but offer little or no protection (to horse or rider), should be easier to knock a rider out of the saddle and offer less (or even no) damage bonus (because they lack the bracing of a heavier saddle).
Cavalry saddle can then be focused for speed - some armour/protection value - damage bonus in the charge, but less the rest of the time - and reduced maneuverability (so that it becomes more about having to set up for the charge and less effective if you get yourself into the middle of a melee).
And then the war saddles can give the armour and damage bonuses, but have the worst maneuverability.

I’m sure on its own it wouldn’t be enough to solve anything - but maybe with a slight reduction in the damage bonus, and making mounted attacks a little more precise (so they don’t just hit everything in the area without much aiming), and most especially making mounted attacks cost the user stamina (because you still get tired swinging a weapon even when you sit on something…), could that bring things more into line?

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This would be the same as we are having now, tons of weapons available but only a handfull is used because they provide the meta. Do you really think that someone will use a saddle he easily get kicked off? I do not. As long as the additional damage, horses provide, don´t get removed, it doesn´t matter how manny saddles you will introduce. There will be a meta and this meta will be used.

Fair enough - the point with the idea was I’d got the impression from reading PVPers comments that the scout saddle is a particular problem because it grants so much maneuverability along with all the other mounted benefits. If that’s not an issue, then my suggestion won’t fix it…

I’m going to throw this suggestion in there. Its probably needed for PVE as well. But attacking on the mount should cost stamina. Free attacks is a bit much for both PVE and PVP.

That is probably something that should be implemented before even discussing a counter.

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Agreed. Free stamina for mounted attacks is op (and IMO unnecessary) - it’s not like you wouldn’t be using effort to swing your weapon around. And I can’t see any way such a change would negatively impact PVE or PVP (maybe I’m missing something :wink: ).

I also think toning down the hit boxes for mounted attacks would be a good change - if anything surely it should take more precision to hit accurately while sitting on hundreds of pounds of independently moving animal? I don’t fight from horseback much (don’t enjoy it, and in singleplayer I don’t have to…), but I couldn’t be bothered to dismount to deal with a few hyenas the other day and noticed that as I swung at the one down to my side I also killed one that was a good horse-length or more ahead of me - I’ve no idea how the weapon was supposed to have reached that far…

I don’t know, it does sound like an interesting idea. Right now everyone I know uses scout saddles. Why? Because you can actually steer your horse properly and you consume endurance much more slowly. Now imagine if that came with a comparative decrease in damage and an increased likelihood of being unhorsed by attacks.

It wouldn’t solve the whole problem, but it would at least give the “meta saddle” some serious drawbacks. It’s not just the saddles, but those are a good example of adding different variants of a gameplay element without proper differentiation. They need to give each variant a compelling incentive to be used and a serious drawback. Otherwise, you end up with several unused variants and one that everyone uses.

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Exactly :slight_smile: I mean, I pretty much exclusively use scout saddles even in singleplayer - they’re just superior. That’s what got me thinking it could be an area for rebalance.

Combine some sort of saddle rebalance, with a damage rebalance and a stamina usage rebalance and maybe it starts getting towards shifting the PVP meta (which, form the outside perspective, looks like an area with a clear issue - forget realism for a moment, fun comes first and if there’s only one meta option then there’s just less gameplay…). Of course, by the sound of things, then there’s the cats…

It’ll be really interesting to see what this combat update brings - see whether any of our speculations match up with any of the coming changes - or did the devs come up with a completely different approach to the issues :slight_smile:

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To be honest I think it would solve a major issue in both playstyles. Of course I’m speaking of the horse’s stamina. Something like 75 or 100 stamina an attack (giving 6-8 attacks) would be a good start. This way if someone goes in swinging and the guy on foot dodges a bit. Then attacks, they have a good chance of dismounting the rider. Right now to have a chance you have to catch them after they sprinted a bit, which no one does in combat unless they’re running away.

For lances, aiming the lance should drain that stamina relatively quickly, maybe 75-100 per half second. Requiring the user to aim the lance only when about to attack. Again if they miss, they’re vulnerable to counter attack.

Hell this alone would mean less need for any sort of new counter. But still grant all the advantages a mounted user is entitled. They would just need to be smart about their attacks.

Like I said, I win buttons people can giggle at are not needed. Whether they be for people on foot or on horseback. And right now stam-free attacks are giggle I-win buttons for the most part.

Admittedly the person in open ground on foot with my suggestion is still at a disadvantage. But they’ll have somewhat of a fighting chance. If they see the horseback rider recklessly attacking, they know to hit them as fast as they can to dismount the rider.

Taemien, you’re an intelligent, knowledgeable person and I respect your experience in and understanding of the game mechanics, especially when it comes to PvP. But here you’re encountering the very challenge with which I have been trying to instruct people for many months now. The way you communicate affects how your message gets through.

Most people cannot distance themselves from their emotions and preconceived notions so as to approach a subject objectively. You can’t expect people to listen your ideas purely rationally, especially if you come across as, well, someone sitting on a high horse (I had to go there, sorry). That sort of communication leads to precisely the phenomenon you’re witnessing here - people arguing with you because they don’t like your tone (or you), not because they necessarily disagree with your points. In fact, it doesn’t even matter what your point is because they want to disagree with you.

If you want to convince people that you’re right - try to do it with a tone that doesn’t provoke an emotional counter-response. As you notice, when Roche presents the same argument, but with a less condescending tone, he gets better results.

Discussions about PvP don’t need to turn into PvP fights.

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@DanQuixote @Hel

The scout saddles for horses are the current equivalent of light armor back then in 2018. (Though light armor was more OP compared to it’s heavy counterpart).

No one uses the other saddles. Yes you can tank a lance hit and not get instantly dismounted, but you can’t compete against a scout saddle, because it has better mobility.

The AoE of the attacks from a spear when on mount is literally easy mode compared to what we have on the ground.

About general PvP in Conan:

I have observed this so far: People have a hard time getting their attacks to connect. The 1h axe is very popular for PvE, because it has AoE, hyper armor, shield smash and decent damage with 2 bleed debuffs in the combo chain. But it is almost useless in PvP because of it’s low range. Players are constantly in motion, making them harder to get hit. The best weapon to hit running players is still the spear. But the hit box is very small, so good aim and prediction is needed.

So the horse is a welcoming gift for those players, who lack aim and prediction. It has a bigger hitbox, both the horse for the knockdown and the spear/sword/axe. Another solution for players with bad aim/prediction are cat pets because of their ability to easily knock down players, so they become immobile and easier to hit. Perfect for the usual 1H axe PvE player.

This is also the reason why Funcom reduced the roll length, slowed it down and added the potion animation! Because it is now easier to hit people.

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??? hmmmmm???..

On my side, to fight I use only the heavy sadlle on a specific horse… to run fast and far away, I use the light one on an other horse…

for the moment I didnt use the midlle sadlle (maybe you need to hit one time with a lance and run quicly away to come back??? or maybe you want to build a horse archer able to fight a bit in melee,)

Mater of tastes… or tests ?