Dagger pvp meta

To be short and simple, playing at a high level of pvp in conan exiles for a long time now. Not sure when it completly happened but holy cow the daggers are just wayyyyyy too strong of an option. Primarily the feroxic daggers are absolutely insane and even if you nerfed them there is still 20 billion “old daggers” that will be horded. I only say this as a fan of the gamr and a complete pvp player since the beginning with over 8k hours ingame across a few platforms, the daggers neeeeeeeeeeeeed to ve nerfed so hard. I have a suggestion as to how as well but this probably isnt easy as i may make it sound in text. But the movement of the daggers is insane. If they couldnt catch so hard they wouldnt be such a massive threat. When down on stamina they are almost a garunteed kill when played right. I also believe they have way too much “hyperarmor” as i call it but bassically a period where they are uninteruptable. This is a light attack witg daggers! I dont get why there is any! Crazy imo and MANY pvp players im sure feel my pain with this complete nerf of pvp from weapon cancels with a very high skill cap to each player, to the new brainless dagger meta where we time our left click and win vs any weapon. Absolutely needs a nerf. Pvp videos to come to youtube showing their disgusting power.

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No I am sorry but I disagree with you, daggers do not need to be nerfed. Let us say for a moment that your request was accomodated and daggers were nerfed “so hard” because they “absolutely need it”, then what do you think will happen? Another weapon will descend into mediocrity, and yet a new meta will rise to take its place, and the process will enlessly repeat itself, like a dog chasing its own tail. Make no mistake, there will always, and I do mean ALWAYS be a meta. And destroying one weapons usefulness just because you personally do not approve of it being the meta is not an answer. No, at some point people need to learn to adapt.

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Eh, the only issue I had with daggers is their damage against the heavier armors that would repel them hard except in very specific armor gaps. Of course when I am talking about heavy armor I mean full body covering armor suits.

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Its okay, pve players tend to disagree with pvp players. Daggers are brainless and OP. Needs nerf no question about it.

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This right here.

I wish Funcom would institute the forum policy SOE used to have. Where nerf calls were banned on the forums. The idea behind it was 99% of the time a nerf call had no substance and never produced anything constructive.

Going by what Croms_Faithful says here, imagine for a moment for the sake of argument that daggers were OP. Now imagine what kind of game we would have if instead of nerfing them, everything else was simply brought up to that level.

Hell imagine for a moment if we took the most under performing weapon type and brought it up? Daggers perform well. This is a good thing. It means there is a weapon people like to use. Why not make EVERY weapon something people like to use?

But therein lies the problem. Therein lies the underlying issue with people like the OP have. They DON’T want every weapon being good. They want THEIR favorite weapon to be good. To hell with the weapons that perform less than that. Like if I decided to make a thread about whatever the OP’s favorite weapon is, compare it to say one-handed maces and say they need to be nerfed because of that. They’d flip their crap.

But let’s be honest. Here’s how the PVP meta has always worked in Conan:

Person plays the game and tries all the weapons.
They gravitate towards the ones that are relatively easy to use and give visual results right away.
They get trounced by a player using a weapon they thought wasn’t good (or thought shouldn’t be good).
They come crying for nerfs.

This makes for some horrible game balance.

It reminds me of a debacle a few years ago in Planetside 2. There was a new weapon added to a faction’s MAX suit (power armor infantry). It was called the Raven. These missiles were guided by the crosshair and did mediocre damage and the missiles weren’t very quick. But the reload speed was good.

People looked at the stats, ran some quick and dirty numbers and found they underperformed compared to just about any other option. That’s the problem, they ran them for the short term damage over time. Which is understandable. Most stuff is rated in time to kill (TTK). The TTK for most infantry weapons against other infantry is .48 seconds (or was back then, not sure about now, years later).

Ravens weren’t Anti-Infantry weapons. But still they were thought of too slow to kill a tank also. Especially compared to normal infantry launchers that don’t require MAX suits. For 6 months, these things went under the radar.

Well I saw them for what they were. They were accurate weapons with a sustained damage that was great over a period of minutes, especially against groups of enemies. In fact my MAX loadout with them was dubbed the ‘Zergbreaker’. Because it could reliably damage enough tanks or even destroy them to stop a tank zerg. 2-3 of us running this could stop an entire tank column.

But since not many did this no one knew how good they were. And the enemy did not know how to deal with it in the offchance they did encounter it. Well eventually it did catch on and people cried. They cried bigtime.

And the devs were confused. How the hell did a weapon system that had been out for 6 months with no changes suddenly become OP? Well they weren’t OP. This was proven by the ‘changes’ made to them. They gave them a 300m range (used to be till they hit something or went off map). Most people can’t see things that far. So it did little to change their actual performance.

But people adapted. And it became just another random obstacle to overcome.

And like Croms says here. People need to adapt. If feroxic daggers are the meta, then large amounts of people will simply switch to them. Which means they will have a vulnerability from another loadout, and we’ll see another nerf call for that.

Funcom just needs to nip it in the bud and simply disallow nerf calls. Force people to vouch for the underdog weapon types or simply hold their peace.

Because even when it comes to PVP, I don’t give a damn if a weapon does better than others. I hate that there are weapons not even considered because they’re simply trash tier. And these people don’t care? Why should I care when they get ganked by daggers? Let them.

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As it goes, Wak even covered a simple version of this a couple of weeks back (I know you don’t watch his stuff) - a little thing called Antidote of One. If the meta is feroxic daggers, then the advantage provided by putting those points into survival makes it far more worthwhile, because it becomes a solid counter to the meta. Of course, there’s a trade off elsewhere, having to take points out of other stats, but that’s the point - if you’ve got a ‘hard counter’ to the meta, you probably shouldn’t also be OP versus ‘non-meta’ builds. Instead we get yet another call for nerfs because people can’t be bothered to consider an alternative - and won’t be satisfied until every weapon in the game has been nerfed into an amorphous, generic, same as all other weapons, piece of cr*p.

What makes this even more ridiculous, is that just this past week we’ve also seen claims that ‘no one uses anything but spears, so spears need to be nerfed’ and ‘bows are too powerful for PVP’. If three separate, completely different, combat styles are all overpowered and all that anyone uses, that would suggest that a majority of this entire issue may be nothing more than sour grapes on the part of players who’ve recently lost to a particular fighting style. It would be a real shame if the game had to be wrecked for everybody else as a result.

tl:dr: NO MORE NERFS and no more calls for nerfs, because the same people will be back next week asking for the next weapon to be nerfed, until nothing functions or has any value at all.

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I don’t play much PvP, not any more anyway. But what I’d expect from a good PvP player is to utilise the best weapons available – not weapon, weapons as in plural form.
First you’d use a mace or hammer to apply sunder to bring down enemy armour, now your enemy is open to your dagger attacks or a sword - I would use a sword because of the cripple effect but that can be countered with a perk anyway just as poison can.

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oh no, another unbeatable PVP meta restricted to one player
that calls for special taskforce, wake dev team right now, tank them full with coffee and put them in allhands mode until it is resolved
this must be nerfed with extreme prejudice

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Only place they are OP is in officials since lock on is a thing there. Remove lock on target for all weapons and daggers not as good anymore.

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There are two things about daggers I’d like to see changed. The backflip and bleeds. The stamina drain from a backflip should be quite massive.

Or

The stamina drain determined by your grit or agility.

I’d really like to see it as a perk in the agility line but that is probably far less likely.

The other thing I’d like to see is the bleeds from heavy attacks being random. I don’t think every heavy attack from a dagger should be a guaranteed bleed.

If it were to be nerfed at all I think those changes would be reasonable.

Otherwise I do agree that it would be better to bring the other weapons on the same level rather than nerfing.

The change with the katana was amazing. Bring more of that into the game.

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No.

No more RNG. Let’s leave the dice rolls on the tabletop.

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Then at the very least bleeds would have to go back to lasting at least 20 seconds, otherwise you might as well just remove bleed from the game entirely. The problem with this line of thinking is that it makes solo boss fights unreasonably grindy - it doesn’t make them harder, just longer and more boring - which has already happened because of the nerf to bleed times making it that much more difficult to maintain a stack (several bosses have particular animations (such as the croc boss tail spin) that make it almost impossible to maintain). Frankly, this is why some of us get sick of seeing yet more calls for nerfs - the nerfs that have already happened are already making the game less and less fun to play.

Bringing other weapons (or other tactics) up to parity is a far better option all round - it has the same potential to provide balance for PVP (a task somewhat akin to bringing balance to the Force…), while not forcing PVE and singleplayer to have the game made worse.

Or you could just stop spreading the same bullsh*t. PVP topics aren’t the problem - constant calls for nerfs are the problem. PVP threads that actually make proactive suggestions don’t get argued against in the same way. But as always, it’s easier to just pretend this is some kind of ‘not allowed to talk about PVP’ rather than actually addressing the point that has been raised a million times - that nerfs are a bad solution that punishes everyone else.

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Ok… which one is it? You can’t both be right when your statements conflict.

Just to add to this, we had someone in another thread claim Axe and Shield is the OP-Meta setup. Not but a week or so ago, someone said two-handed swords and hammers were wrecking them. Not to mention bows had two or three threads in the last week or two too.

Daggers
Bows
Spears
Two-handed Swords
Two-hand Hammers
Axes

All OP apparently according to this community. Good job all. Good job.

Just waiting on Maces, Javelins, Throwing, Greataxes, and Katanas. Maybe Shortswords? I THINK I saw this listed as an OP weapon about a month ago? Not sure.

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They are definitely over used but people who rely on feroxic light spam are usually pretty easy to kill because it takes no skill to do, so they lull themselves into a complasant playstyle and dont evolve. Is it a boring meta? 100% . Personally i think cripple daggers are vastly superior. Most people will carry set antidotes or some sort of poison negate , as they should. I rarely die to feroxic spam now, its easy to bait people into whiffing and then countering with harpy/dagon and once i poke em once its a 95% kill.
I think that daggers should probably just recieve an updated move set , similar to punching daggers, the moveset is really damn good and ive always used them, but theres really no reason to use 2h swords or 1h maces over them. Its time for more moveset reworks and daggers should be included .

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In Conan? Never! Not anymore after all the nerfs.

Plenty of helpful stuff coming out of the PvE crowd, most of whom have never picked up a set of daggers in anger. But a keyboard? Wow!

When a new player approaches me on the server I’m invariably naked. All I need to do is run around a little and craft some stone daggers, and they’re done. To taunt them I’ll take the time and knit some trousers while sprinting.

You want a lag-compatible way of scoring endless hits on an up-armoured player?

  1. Finger in nose
  2. Target lock
  3. Tap out morse code on your mouse
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The only thing that needs to be adjusted is a threshold damage received before effects kick in and reduce the amount of damage…notdagger should do more than a sword. Right now, you can do a single point of damage and stack about 80 pnts per second onto a person. That simply doesn’t make sense. If you are armored up to the point where the attack merely bruises you, you shouldn’t get the bleed or poison effects that the weapon does extra. So the mechanical solution would be a damage treshold that the defender would have to receive before the effects come active.

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Then surely that suggests at least part of the problem is target lock? (Or possibly the finger in the nose, but we can probably discount that :wink: ). I don’t use it, because I find it irritating (especially the way it limits dodging), so I’m not really in a position to judge its impact - and I only recently found out the way it works with snap shots from a bow, which does seem completely broken to me (but then, I also don’t use bows much…). What about spear? Are we three for three on target lock being a part of the problem, or are the tactics used with spear different enough to make target lock irrelevant there? And if target lock is even just a significant part of the problem (rather than the entire cause), then nerfs would not likely change much (just do the same with shortsword, or punch daggers or whatever other weapon instead). Ultimately, even if we take calls for nerfs at face value, as nothing more than somewhat unimaginative suggestions to fix a genuine issue, they’re no use if they aren’t actually going to fix the problem.

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The target lock makes it easier to play one-handed, if you catch my drift. I was trying to not be lurid.

With a thumb switch and a few extra mouse buttons, it’s really easy to flip around like Peter Pan and lacerate all-comers. This would appear to be a flawed moveset.

PvE wise, players like me have dags on the bar but only ever use them to set up boss bleeds. This shortens a key engagement to tolerable (survivable*) levels. I would not propose using daggers all the time in PvE because it is unfun.


* The longer you fight a boss, the more you set yourself up for losses to players.

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Maybe that’s the problem with the opening post – too much dagger, not enough keyboard – because I honestly couldn’t understand what the actual suggestion was. :slight_smile:

Speaking as a PVE player, we’ve all seen way too many “nerf this” and “nerf that” posts over the years and they often end badly for our play styles. So naturally, when we see a post that says “NERF DAGGERS” and it looks like yet another incomprehensible complaint-vomit, we get this knee-jerk reaction, because daggers are actually something we care about in PVE, very much so.

Buried deep inside the opening post is something that looks like it was meant to be a suggestion:

…but I can’t decipher what the hell that actually means.

It’s like @DanQuixote pointed out:

So how about we hold the OP to the same standard of “helpfulness” you directed at PVE players and ask him politely to write a clear suggestion that can be understood and discussed properly?

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