Funcom, we need to talk about PvP

We want fence stacking replaced. Not removed… there is a difference.

We’re cool with fence stacking being gone, but we want FC to remove it and fix the issue that caused it at the same time: making buildings so weak that fence stacking became desirable in the first place.

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Yea, and that decorative stuff gets SMASHED with this upcoming patch. : (

I agree that it’s a cool feature to have in game, but I personally would like them removed on PvP servers.
Ruins the suprise of trap bases.

Sounds good. Now how do we know they don’t? Have they suddenly started giving out more detailed explanations when players request ban information? Their typical replies are along the lines of “you were banned for abuse of building system”. They don’t even say which building, much less what kind of abuse.

“We” seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting there. All I know is that there are several PVP players – not gonna name any names in a public post, but they’ve been prominent, so it’s not hard to find them – who have argued that it doesn’t matter if a building technique can be used legitimately (e.g. for decorative purposes) as long as it can be abused. In their words, “an exploit is an exploit” and “if it can be abused, then it should not be in the game”.

And Funcom sided with them, just like they did with the guy who said using Karmic Effect on a thrall to repair your stuff was an exploit and should be removed.

I’m not sure if it’ll get smashed, but you definitely don’t get to build any more of that. So you’ll forgive me if I’m salty about how the game is getting ruined by the vocal minority who would rather ruin the game for others than take responsibility for their abuse of the game mechanics.

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I don’t get your point here. It sounds like your attacking me. For what reason I don’t grasp.

If FC wants to ban anyone who has fence stacked, they will basically ban the MAJORITY of the PvP community. I haven’t seen a single big clan on a Public PvP server that doesn’t fence stack. And to my knowledge, FC had never previously considered it an exploit. If FC officially declares it an exploit, as they appear to have done in these patch notes, then so be it. If I want to keep playing, I will modify my base to adhere to the new rules. But, if they don’t make buildings more sturdy I’ll just stop playing the game. Because I bought this game to build a castle that is defensible, not to build a fancy castle that will never be battle tested. Nor did I buy the game to build an ugly monstrosity that is perfect meta.

I have seen plenty of players leave this game because they build a nice base, it gets destroyed one night and they don’t have a chance to rebuild because alphas keep blowing their shacks down… most new players have the impression that T3 will protect you. But it won’t. They have this impression because the game gives that impression by its design… but then the design fails to deliver on its promises.

If Funcom doesn’t want any nice builds on a PvP server, by all means they can keep following this path. I’ll just simply stop playing. No biggie.

I’m salty that you think I’m an exploiter by using the same building tricks you use in PvE. Sounds super Hypocritical to me.

I’m not sure if it’ll get smashed

What you were describing cannot be done with the building changes.

I wasn’t intentionally attacking you. Like I said, I’m pissed off at those whose “logic” was that Funcom should remove this building technique from the game. If you were one of those, then I guess I was attacking you without knowing it.

I mean, the options were “either you adapt to the change in the rules or you get banned”. Now there are no options, you gotta adapt, except that PVE also gets screwed.

They’ve done that already, way before these patch notes. Thing is, they didn’t do it right. Instead of announcing it in a pinned post that everyone can see, they left it buried at the end of an obscure thread with 100+ posts.

So naturally, only a handful of people knew about it, because they hang around the forums a lot.

You’re pissed off at the wrong guy. If you take a look at that thread I mentioned, I was defending stacking in it, because I considered it emergent gameplay, based on the fact that they had said it’s not an exploit some 10 months before that thread.

And what I got for opening my big mouth was the confirmation that they changed their minds and now it’s an exploit.

So I’m not the one who decided that stacking is an exploit, Funcom did.

Again, take that up with Funcom, too, and their definition of exploit:

That’s from their own rules. From where I stand, it looks like building a fancy corridor in PVE, for decorative purposes, doesn’t convey an unfair advantage over other players, unlike stacking fence foundations in PVP for the purposes of artificially increasing the HP density of your base.

But again, the mistake people make when talking to me is that they think I care about what you do in PVP. No offense, but I don’t. I only get riled up and start discussing this when people who got banned come here and start asking for stuff like building limits and removal of building techniques.

And then people get pissy at me, because how dare I object and “try to silence them”. Apparently, I’m the combative asshat because I don’t want crap like that ruining PVE. And guess what? I was right to object, because look at what Funcom’s doing: removing a building technique. Maybe we need more combative asshats like me and fewer people whose logic is “if I can’t have it, nobody should”.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough: I don’t think that the game itself will blow it up when it rolls out to live. I think it’ll let stand whatever’s already built, but not allow building it again. So yeah, you’re right, it will get smashed by other players, on PVP servers.

Whoever built their fancy stuff on a PVE server better sit on it, because it’s gonna be a museum piece in the future.

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I wasn’t trying to be offensive at all CodeMage, but the thing is I just took about a 3 month break from Conan, logging in to refresh and do a little base maintenance. I was last aware of FunCom not considering fence stacking an exploit. However, thanks to your link here and elsewhere (I actually found the thread you linked to since the last reply) I now know the official stance and I will go update my base accordingly (now that I can easily dismantle huge chunks–THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE RECENT BUILDING FEATURES FUNCOM!). All of this said… all of the PvP groups I play with are quite upset about the coming changes because they don’t read the forums all the time like I do (when I’m not on hiatus) and we were ALL under the impression that fence stacking was not considered an exploit, just an emergent property. The sad thing is, as you can see from my post on the 2.8 testlive discussion thread, I think the alternative solution to fence stacking is gonna make PvP bases even bigger and–worse–uglier. I for one do think that official servers need a limit on building (not on the pieces used, but in terms of land area) to prevent people from taking over too much space. However, I am NOT of the opinion that PvE builders–especially those playing locally or on private servers–should get screwed over by PvP changes (something that, as you have admitted, the 2.8 patch does).

I’m personally still in favor of build zones for PvP so that people on PvP have a limited territory that they can go nuts in.

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Dude, you weren’t offensive at all. If my writing sounds angry, it’s because I am angry – I’m bloody furious – but not at you. I’m angry at Funcom and at people who goaded them into this, in just about equal measure.

And to be honest, it’s not that I used this particular building technique extensively. I had a few projects here and there that made clever use of it, but it’s not essential. What ticks me off is that if they removed this, how will they decide to ruin PVE next? Will they remove the 1/8th drop to prevent people from stacking ceilings? Will they implement a building cap that imposes a maximum number of building pieces?

Hell yeah, I’d love that. If the map had raid and no-raid zones, then maybe even a wuss like me would finally get to try PVP. Especially if there are in-game incentives to build inside raid zones, so that people have a nice motive for conflict other than “because I can” :wink:

But at this point, that’s not even something I dream of in Conan Exiles. My faith in Funcom’s decisions is at its lowest point since I started playing in February of 2017.

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THIS. See. I’m a PvP player, but I’m also a fellow builder. I love using the building system and it’s tricks and quirks to make works of art. That’s what I love about Conan. But part of what I love about the game is being able to build pretty builds that are also practical (i.e. can be defended). As a game dev, I have an idea about what causes performance problems on the server and I have always tried with my main base (even though it’s admittedly massive) to keep performance stable and ensure that my build isn’t making the server run horribly. My base is big, but it’s built in an almost completely blank section of the world away from all POIs and valuable resources. (Despite it’s size, my base only despawns 2 useless mobs and 3 ice nodes). By spreading the base out however, only parts of the base are loaded at any one time, which actually makes local performance much better (not sure how it affects the server perf. but I imagine the server doesn’t render parts of the map no player is in.) Part of this design also encourages PvP, because enemies have to walk further to reach the core of the base and it gives my clanmates and I time to react. Personally, I’ve wished for a long time that I could not use fence stacks because they don’t look as good. But on a PvP server, it’s just been pretty much essential…since its considered an exploit now I guess I’m gonna have to go figure out how to make it work.
As another note, I think the people complaining about fence stacks are just mad because they can’t ninja-raid a mega-base.

Yea, personally what I would like to see is each clan having a certain number of “claim zones” (maybe something like 4-5) which have a specific radius (or specified surface area would be preferred) where the clan can build as much as they want within that zone and it is considered their land claim, but they cannot build buildings outside of those zones, preventing one clan from claiming the entire map, but not imposing a strict limit on how tall or how many pieces they can use. This would also allow clans to make 1 or 2 megabases instead of 4-5 outposts.

As an added bonus, FC could consider allowing clans to trade or conquer claim zones. I think it would be cool to have clans fighting over the coolest base on the server.

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Fence/door/whatever stacking is still not a solution, because any amount of bombs is relatively easy to produce even for a solo player. Building 178 doors to protect your base is not a feature, is an exploit and a bad game design, and this needs to be gone. Destroying 178 doors is not fun and the result of a bad game design, and this needs to be gone. Increasing door HP to compensate your 178 doors is not a solution, because you still need to build 50-60 doors to have the same total HP, and another player still need the same amount of bombs to get through it.

Base defense and attack are poorly designed and removing stacking is a first step for healthier gameplay.

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ANY chat.

There’s also the admin screen “exploit” that shows the “who’s played” list, and gives unfair advantage to goobers like me.

Visible health bars, though, they make Conan a non-PvP-ready game.

And before anybody argues with me: YES there are health bars in other PvP games, and YES they work. In Conan Exiles, so much depends on our variables. Our SAVAGES – the attributes. Exposing the health bars completely demolishes this central stanchion of the game.

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Not to mention removes any way of stealth play.

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I will commit to saying I’m mad at PVP exploiters in general and those who cry for “balance” in PVP when it appears to an outsider to not be possible without everyone naked, fist fighting. If its not “this weapon OP” or “limit build pieces” or “thrall OP”, its “I got banned and I don’t know why”. It does irk me that these voices drive game changes when in reality, most should be ignored. I’m not down on the fence stacking being removed simply because people are complaining about the rules not being clear; this just clarifies one by making it impossible, but I am completely in agreement that its tiresome to have to accommodate a playstyle that seems rife with problems that are never really solved, just has the goalposts inched further along each time.

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Yeah but each weapon…each combat style should have strengths and weaknesses. What can counter a horse in the same way it plows through infantry? What is the weakness of feroxic daggers? This is why I think design was done in typical project management style (in bubbles. You work on x and they will work on y ) and not reviewed with the entire game in mind where give and take is considered to promote diversity of play.

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This right here. Conan has so many great pieces, but rarelybisnthere a game loop balance of those pieces. The coders, art team. sound team are awesome. But it seems to lack cohesive direction from above them.

They are constantly trying to balance it out, but its a moving target.

If you want to counter a horse, get a horse, but thats a topic thats been argued ad nauseum.

I actually solve this problem in a different way and I think it makes the architecture of the whole structure better. Basically, all my walls are one foundation thick. It does tend to make them bigger though, and small builds are pretty much impossible.

That’s not a counter. That’s just admitting they are not balanced

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Been over this. Footman is at a disadvantage in straight up fight. That’s what makes cavalry powerful. Talking balance to an extent is meaningless because one IS superior. Thats like saying a racing game should be balanced for bicycles or CoD should be balanced for bows.

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