Please Revert Damage Cancelling Aloe Heals

Let me try to take this on, since I’m in a similar position to Croms of not really understanding what you meant.

You seem to be saying that in your opinion there’s no difference between facing a group or a single enemy - is that what you meant? Because that’s certainly not my experience. Or did the second (partial) sentence ‘LOS archers.’ mean that you were referring specifically to archers? In which case I’d be closer to agreement - the number of archers doesn’t seem to matter as much for me as facing a group of melee enemies - but even then, I’d have to say that numbers still make a difference (it’s just a little easier to temporarily negate enemy archers attacks by messing with their line of sight).

Am I getting anywhere near what you were trying to say?

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That is so very true. Only a very small portion of the players actually actively use the forum.

I saw this with Age of Conan as well. It is, to a degree, a strength and a weakness.

That is part of the strength which I mentioned.

That is part of the weakness, though you personally have the right attitude for it not to be nearly as big of a weakness as it is in the eyes of others. :grin:

Same here!

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2 sentences. One mention “melee”, one mention “archers”.

I think you’re trying too hard to not understand it.

Lets start with the second. The mentioned highly populated areas all have plenty of buildings where you can LOS archers. (or to be specific, break line of sight so they can’t shoot at you, for those who don’t understand this gaming terminology)

First sentence - Easy or hard is in the eye of the player, so I wrote “equally easy/hard”. It depends on your skill level. No matter if there’s one or ten melee enemies, they will all come to you. No matter if there is one or ten, you will have to run the same distance from them to have enough time to heal.

No I wrote “get distance”

Maybe it’s easier to understand if you read the actual words.

Thank you… A lot. Truly.
For persons like you I am so happy to participate in this forum and I feel so grateful. It’s rare to find people to understand, still here a have find a few and I am happy, and this is the best part of this community.
Thank you again.

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heehee there is no need to thank me.

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So, finally, after two separate people ask politely for you to explain what you meant, you at last deign to do so - but feel the need to respond to polite enquiry by accusing people of ‘trying not to understand’. This doesn’t strengthen your position.

So let’s examine what you actually meant - indeed, it is correct that you will have to ‘run the same distance’ whether there is one enemy or ten, but that is only a tiny part of the equation. First you have to disengage from them to begin running; easy with one, near impossible with ten. Next you need to have space to run - in the larger camps you do not have space to run without relying on obstacles, and I can assure you that the enemy ai is sufficiently sophisticated that they can and will take multiple paths round some of those obstacles, which can result in you being cut off and surrounded again. Climbing is rarely an option, since if you are fleeing there’s a reasonable chance of having bleed on you or similar, plus the time taken will likely leave you back in line of sight for those archers. Also, of course, there is almost never a situation where you face only melee or only archers, usually it is a mix and you need to deal with both.

This thread is calling for the recent change that damage cancels aloe potions to be reverted. Nothing in your argument seems to really relate to that. You say it is equally easy (or hard) to get distance from a group, but it is not about getting distance, it is about getting time, and that is nowhere near as simple as you suggest by trying to focus on a single element (the distance). Your apparent intent with the ‘easy/hard’ point is a positive one, trying to take skill levels out of the equation, and that is appreciated. But I think there are many more interlocking aspects here than you are taking into account.

No one is trying to misunderstand you. But people legitimately misunderstand all the time, especially when someone tries to abbreviate their thoughts into some kind of shorthand. ‘LOS Archers’ for example is not a sentence, unless the reader happens to already know that you are using ‘LOS’ as a verb - a point you even acknowledge in your latest response - I for one have never previously seen it used this way. You don’t convince anyone of your point of view by lobbing insults, in fact you just undermine whatever legitimacy your argument may have had.

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If you let yourself be swarmed/surrounded by ten, then yes it is very hard.

If you use your brain you do not let yourself be swarmed.

If you want to be able to heal through being swarmed you want the game to be too easy imo.

I have run around buildings and climbed on roofs many times in all 3 mentioned places.

I have also died many times in all 3. Also with a thrall. Imo it’s fair that they are hard places. It is not low level enemies and if you want to be able to no-heal solo zerg them, lower the difficulty of your singleplayer game. I do not want the online experience to be easy (but we are equally allowed to have our opinion on this).

In this case distance = time. More distance to melee enemy = more time they need to spend to get to you = more time to heal.

Back when it was food heals you just ran in circles until healed, now you get enough distance to have time to pop the heal and then run in circles. People survived back then and I’m sure they still can.

I have seen it used that way at least since I played WoW almost 15 years ago. if people didn’t understand that sentence, then it’s weird you didn’t just ask about it.

I’m sorry but when one sentence mentioned melee and one mentioned archers, it just seemed to me like you deliberately tried to make it more confusing than it actually was.

I don’t think Croms was polite. But yeah, you were, sorry for the tone.

Apology accepted.

I’m not gonna go too long on this right now, because I want to get some game time in, but thought I should clarify a couple of points.

Agreed - and not what I’m looking for (nor do I believe it’s what Croms is looking for) - the system we want to revert to actually did still include some cancellation by damage in the opening part of the animation (I can’t tell you how many potions I’ve wasted by not quite being out of range of the strike when I tried to drink it) - once swarmed it wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) be enough to get you through it (though spamming them might get you a lucky break of a little extra health with which to try to get yourself back out, but at the cost of multiple wasted potions for very little benefit).

And yes, sometimes when getting swarmed it is unquestionably the player’s fault - a good example being yesterday when I got surrounded by stepping forward with a couple of attacks and my thrall moved in behind me to block my intended escape route - I took a calculated risk and it didn’t go well. But there is also the issue of aggro to consider - a well designed camp has the potential for a careful player to aggro small groups at a time, which allows for it to be a reasonable challenge solo or in a group. But several of these camps (particularly some of the newer ones) don’t seem to take account of that option at all, instead setting up large groups to aggro simultaneously, which feels like a less considered design.

I’d also argue that it doesn’t require allowing yourself to be swarmed by the ten to make it harder to disengage - unless they’re all charging from a single direction (which at least in New Asagarth they do tend to do more often - again something I consider an example of more thoughtful design), they can easily block off multiple avenues of escape even without you being completely surrounded - forcing the only route available for an escape to heal to be one that will aggro yet more of them. Again, this doesn’t have to be wrong, but removing any option of healing, just seems like a step too far.

Literally the opposite of what is being called for - we’re calling for the ability to heal, still requiring escape, still needing not to get hit during the animation (because even if it doesn’t cancel healing, you still take the extra damage), just without the healing itself being immediately stopped by any damage within that two second window. The argument is that it’s too easy for npcs to stop you healing under this new system, not that we don’t want to have to work for it. The combination of slow walking (requiring, as you have noted, distance from melee enemies) and the likelihood of an archer regaining line of sight while you are slowed, and the likelihood of groups of enemies circling the other way round an obstacle, thus being able to swarm you, is already enough if there is not going to also be a way to break them into smaller more manageable groups.

This is already getting too long - so I’ll just add that yes, big end game camps should be a tough challenge - the true argument here is about the level of that challenge. I (and in theory others) feel that this particular healing change makes what was already challenging into something that is unreasonable. (Especially given that, at least in single player, getting sufficient distance to actually heal ‘safely’ under the new system often triggers leashing of the npcs, with the result that they heal back up fully, for free, so whatever has been achieved up to that point is often lost and now has to be repeated, but with fewer healing resources available.) The counter argument is that, of course, I’ve seen multiple youtube videos of some group tanked up in godbreaker or the like, standing still and spamming attacks and heals, just carving through whatever with no thought, skill or effort. I don’t want that for the game. I just want a challenge that seems to have considered the option of doing it solo if you take your time and are careful (and still allows a decent challenge for groups if they want to charge in and aggro a bunch).

I’m usually not one to want to change things as far as healing is concerned, since I really do like how they handled the potions in combat, wraps out of combat feature. But this might be one where I can get behind.

As it stands now, if you use a potion, you have an animation that can be canceled from damage. You lose the potion, waste the animation, and don’t get healed. I think that’s a good enough penalty. Losing the healing because you got hit right after you finished is just kicking us while we’re down.

So I do agree that if one gets the animation off. You get the healing. And the weird thing is, it seems like they did this change to sate the PVPers. But I don’t really remember any PVPers really complaining about the potions in combat. I’m sure some did, but I doubt it was the majority. I mean I tend to PVP from time to time and I didn’t ask for it. I thought it was fine as it was.

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Most of pvp players didn’t ask for the majority of changes “made for PVP players” and you won’t see much feedback because the majority of the same pvp crowd plays New World right now or Naraka.

No one really used/uses/will use bandages in PVP. Why? Because players can’t move while healing.
It’s not about heal numbers, weight or craft cost. It’s about movement and the ability to avoid dmg.

Can’t wait for 3.5.6. patch to see things finally fixed :slight_smile:

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Agreed, I think the Devs are in the “its not broken lets fix it” phase of the game.
That is also called job security.

I think the tether was more anti troll for pve. People would troll bosses to bases, and could destroy bases that way. So to prevent that, they made it where you can only troll the boss so far before it “reset”. Also people could troll rare spawn npc points and hide them in a make shift jail just to keep people from farming preists. An early pvp tactic so you could sleep and not worry if 9ther clans were farming t4 preists while you were 9ffline.

No, they couldn’t. Not on PVE. What they could do with those bosses is wipe out any followers you left out in the open.

It’s really not hard at all to protect your thralls and pets from that, but Funcom apparently decided it was a big enough problem, so they implemented a feature pretty much nobody likes and, as a result, got rid of several other emergent gameplay situations, such as:

  • cleaning up followers left by a clan that moved
  • player-organized arena matches against bosses
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The leashing/tether thing that bosses do wasn’t really because of people dragging bosses. It was because of people standing on inaccessible locations and shooting NPCs to death.

I’m actually fine with the tethering because of that.

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For all of you “play my way” he -men that think mashing the attack button is the only way to play, your right.
For the rest of us, it is called strategy. Maybe they just need to remove any weapon that is a projectile, and we can all just swing our swords. . . yawn.
And Codemage is correct. The NPC spammers cried so much salt that FC added tethering. It was not unusual to see 50 rhinos outside a T1 crackerbox base.

I’ve played about 60% ranged over the last three years and made a mod to fix archery when it was utterly broken, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think Melee is my favorite playstyle.

Standing up on a rock where the mob has no chance to get you is a strategy. But let’s face it, it’s a cheesy strategy. One I’m guilty of using myself before the tether fix. I’m glad they added the tethers tbh.

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I’m not. If cheesing the bosses was such a big problem, fine, I’m not going to argue with that, but I do wish they had used a different, better solution for that problem. One that didn’t take away some truly useful things.

There’s two ways they could have done it. The way they did (the way 99% of games with this issue handle it). And the Everquest way.

The Everquest way is just the wrong way as it involves the NPC running to you, hitting the structure/wall/cliffside you are standing on. Then becoming one with it for a few moments, merging inside. Then popping through the ground on top of you engulfing your character.

This would mean certain death for anyone who pulled a non-human model (especially a rhino) as they get stuck in the model and get attacked relentlessly.

Not to mention its glitchy, unimmersive, and shoddy. But that’s the nature of Everquest. That’s a game with bugs older than some forum users here.

Eh. They could’ve also triggered the leash only if the pathfinding algorithm can’t find a path to you for X seconds, for example. Or something. I’m currently taking a short break between two CP2077 missions, so I don’t really have that much incentive to think of novel-yet-feasible solutions for this :wink: