So this is OK, right?

[karlabear]

but in every single game I know of, there is constantly changes to balance things out.
wether it being nerfs or buffs.
big games like League of Legends, CSGO etc. monthly updates changing weapons/characters etc. to balance the overall gameplay. cause the devs obviously cant launch a 100% balanced update.
So talking about what needs to be nerfed/buffed is essential to improving the overall gameplay. if you disagree with that i dont even know what to say. (not you axelsannoying)

[Barnes]

Cool. Because the last thing we need here is one person contributing a data set.

Also, I have no Siptah gear, so my testing will suck. It’s important that we test on a server, in my opinion. I don’t think Co-Op will give us the Straight Dope.

[Kikigirl]

You will absolutely need the Siptah gear mentioned + sigils to perform the tests, so moot ya.

[Ulyssi]

@karlabear

the thing is, im not trying to convince you roleplayers. i couldnt care less about you actually.
but you are making it harder to convince funcom, by making all your invalid requests and ideas, because you dont know what you are talking about.
or to put in terms you may better understand, dont ask the blacksmith how to do a carpenters job.

If you cannot convince FC to your position, that is a failure on your part. If you choose to not garner support from your fellow posters by trying to convince them to your position, that is also a failure on your part.

This is a public forum. Anyone can speak to how anything COULD or SHOULD be, regardless of their resume. If you want to chide PVE players for speaking to how things ARE in PVP, fair enough. The moment you start telling people they cannot speculate because they don’t meet your personal standards for opinions is the moment you have gone too far.

That you view things as simply as “blacksmiths vs carpenters” speaks volumes of your critical thinking. As if there were no foolish blacksmiths or that CE players can so easily be divided into PVP and PVE boxes.

Edit:

@karlabear

why is it so bad talking about nerfs?

I think this is an over correction from players frustrated with FC. Even if a significant amount of players are demanding nerfs, it’s on FC to decide if there are no other game design options around whatever the problem is. Players calling for nerfs is a symptom, it’s on FC to find the source of the problem and address that.

Though it’s not wrong to say nerf threads become pointless pretty quickly. Very few can sustain productive discussion.

[CodeMage]

@karlabear

im sorry that you felt like i was talking to you. when in fact i was talking to the guy who started talking about animation cancel, and how melee combat is much more skilled.

Honestly, I couldn’t care less who you were supposed to be talking to. You were being toxic towards a whole group of people that happens to include me. And you’re not the only one. It’s something that has been happening since I joined these forums years ago, and it has only grown worse lately.

@karlabear

but hey, if you felt attacked i guess thats for a reason. what that reason is ill leave up to you to figure out

There’s nothing to figure out. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been on a thread where people like you would say the same things, and I’m really sick of it.

@karlabear

i love how you react to me being, according to you, condescending.

Oh, it’s not just according to me. I bet @Ulyssi is having a laugh at how you’re calling him a roleyplayer and putting things in “terms he may better understand”. Yes, you are condescending, and you’ve done plenty to demonstrate it.

@karlabear

by yourself being condescending. the irony in that is beautifull.

There we go with whataboutism, the predictable refuge of the intolerant. I don’t know if I should stay to argue about the paradox of tolerance, or just go make an actual bingo card for these discussions.

@karlabear

a better idea would be to split the communities up in pvp and pve.

How?

@karlabear

that way we dont need to have the flower specialists comment on the balancing on a pvp mechanic.

Oh, yeah, good thing you’re not condescending and I was just imagining that…

@karlabear

So talking about what needs to be nerfed/buffed is essential to improving the overall gameplay.

Right, so how come the common reaction when people say “hey, maybe instead of nerfing this we might buff something else or maybe do this third thing” is to tell them to shut up?

[Barnes]

@CodeMage

Right, so how come the common reaction when people say “hey, maybe instead of nerfing this we might buff something else or maybe do this third thing” is to tell them to shut up?

It could be we’re rough around the edges, or it could be you’re too sensitive.

On a PvP server, if you got no chops, you shut up. I have learned recently that this is not acceptable among some people of the gentler sort, and I am therefore reducing the temperature in my public discourse. The truth of the matter is, if you have no combat experience (on a server), piping up about it like an expert will get you shortlisted for a visit from Yog. Offering weak solutions will get you clan-kicked and curb-stomped. Etc.

@karlabear appears to be of a similar mindset.

[Ulyssi]

@CodeMage

I bet @Ulyssi is having a laugh at how you’re calling him a roleyplayer and putting things in “terms he may better understand”.

I roleplay as an official server PvPer.

[erjoh]

@karlabear

why is it so bad talking about nerfs?

Because it’s Frankenstein’s monster now. Every tweak in the system in updates breaks something else in the balance scheme. Nerfing without digging into why was the weapon/armor/mount is out of sync with the rest of the game is a sure fire way to make the game ugly and complicated and when that happens, all of us PVP and PVE folks suffer. I can only hope that 3.0 has redeveloped the entire system thinking of benfits and weaknesses of all the weapon types and combat situations (inlcuding horses).

[CodeMage]

@Barnes

It could be we’re rough around the edges, or it could be you’re too sensitive.

A little from column A, a little from column B, I guess. I’ve grown quite sensitive because it’s been a problem since I joined the forums, I shіt you not.

The big difference is that, back then, there were still people who would speak out against that kind of behavior. And I don’t mean mods, they don’t seem to care about that. I mean players from all “sides”, speaking out against that behavior on all “sides”, because PVE players also tend to be dicks and blame PVP for every bad thing that happens.

I used to be one of those who would try to calm things down when PVE players started blaming PVP players, and I would point out that we’re all just playing the game and that whenever something bad happens, it’s Funcom who chose to do it, not the players themselves.

But there was only a handful of people like that, and there’s no shortage of new players who will come and be toxic on the forums, and the number of those reasonable voices started dwindling. After a while, I found myself being the target of fecal missiles from all sides of the debate, and I grew tired of it.

Fast-forward to today, and I just don’t give a damn about trying to be polite anymore. I stay polite as long as other do the same. And I’ve just realized yesterday that I also don’t give a damn anymore if the thread does end up derailed because I couldn’t just politely eat shіt and then send my regards to the chef.

@Barnes

I have learned recently that this is not acceptable among some people of the gentler sort, and I am therefore reducing the temperature in my public discourse.

And I sincerely thank you for that.

@Barnes

The truth of the matter is, if you have no combat experience (on a server), piping up about it like an expert will get you shortlisted for a visit from Yog

I know the feeling. Back before Funcom started moderating servers, it wasn’t unusual to mete out a similar kind of “summary roadside justice” on a PVE server by, for example, temporarily walling in an obnoxious troll who kept harassing everyone.

But this isn’t a Conan Exiles server. I understand the frustration when someone talks authoritatively about stuff they don’t understand, because I’ve seen that on the PVE side of the fence too, usually coming from PVP players who insist that PVE is just a subset of PVP (spoiler: it’s not). However, telling a whole group of people that they shouldn’t say anything at all is just downright toxic.

[Barnes]

@CodeMage

But this isn’t a Conan Exiles server. I understand the frustration when someone talks authoritatively about stuff they don’t understand

There is a regular lament from most around here that there isn’t enough PvP representation. Yet when PvP players do appear, and they don’t kiss the appropriate rings they are shouted down. Or derailed. Or both.

@CodeMage

However, telling a whole group of people that they shouldn’t say anything at all is just downright toxic.

I suggest you recalibrate your toxicity meter: telling people who don’t have an interest to shut up is the same as telling a crowd to quiet down because we can’t hear the P.A. Announcement about the tornado hitting the Exiled Lands. I’ll just make sure to ask “pretty please” with sugar on top, “stop derailing this 700-post informational thread.”

That you don’t care about derailing makes you part of the problem. I do, and I’m sorry to have participated in it. But dealing with you is like handling a lawyer: let it stand unopposed and it’s written in stone.

[AxeIsAnnoying]

@Barnes

Cool. Because the last thing we need here is one person contributing a data set.

Well, I just want people to experience the same experience that I have. There are a lot of people around who act like: “As long as it doesn’t affect me, I don’t care”. But if they are joining my mentioned official server or testing it out in Co-op they can see it with their own eyes. It’s way different IMO than just writing words over it. Perfect example would be the war in Ukraine: if you have not experienced it, you can’t know how bad it is.

People come into this discussion and write “I don’t think it’s OP to get oneshot” and I am not even sure if they have actually experienced/seen this before. That’s why I posted a clip (yes it’s not the best, but it should display what I experienced pretty well). I think I start to repeat myself here.

@Barnes

Also, I have no Siptah gear, so my testing will suck. It’s important that we test on a server, in my opinion. I don’t think Co-Op will give us the Straight Dope.

That might be true. But I could only assume that solo/coop (or decadent setting) is the same set of settings as on official servers.

I mean if solo/coop is different from officials, this would also invalidate any testing done on testlive solo/coop.

[CodeMage]

@Barnes

Yet when PvP players do appear, and they don’t kiss the appropriate rings they are shouted down. Or derailed. Or both.

Okay, fine, I’ll bite: what rings are they supposed to kiss and how does that ring-kissing look?

@Barnes

I suggest you recalibrate your toxicity meter: telling people who don’t have an interest to shut up is the same as telling a crowd to quiet down because we can’t hear the P.A. Announcement about the tornado hitting the Exiled Lands.

I mean, that’s precisely why some of those people are piping up, because they do have an interest and their interest is to avoid another tornado hitting their corner of Exiled Lands.

Before anyone asks, I’m not talking about lances here, specifically. But daggers are a pretty good example, made even better because that’s where you started flipping out on PVE people who dared poke their noses in it.

Yes, we do have interest in combat balancing, because there’s combat in PVE, too. I don’t think Funcom will ever decide to split up and duplicate all the data tables for PVE and PVP and start balancing them separately, but if they do, that’s when I’ll happily shut up and never poke my nose into PVP discussions, because that’s when we’ll finally be able to have PVP-only discussions.

@Barnes

That you don’t care about derailing makes you part of the problem.

I tried being part of the solution, while I had allies. Who knows, maybe being part of the problem will convince people that cooperation is the only thing that can solve it.

@Barnes

But dealing with you is like handling a lawyer: let it stand unopposed and it’s written in stone.

Funny, because that’s the way I feel about you and a couple of other people. That’s why I flagged a bunch of posts that were intentionally derailing this thread, because the last thing I need is to give you more reasons to play victim.

What I really don’t understand is why it’s so unreasonable to ask a simple thing: “don’t be a dick to a whole group of people because you didn’t like one or more specific members of that group”. I mean, do you really think it would be okay for me to say that those who play on private servers should never be allowed an opinion on matters that affect official servers just because @Taemien can be a dick?

[Barnes]

@AxeIsAnnoying

That might be true. But I could only assume that solo/coop (or decadent setting) is the same set of settings as on official servers.

Essentially, I think as @LostBrythunian points out, server FPS and number of players may contribute to what we see here. There are reports that after mergers, some servers are grinding a bit. We all, you and me and the lamppost, know how weird things get with bad performance. And how some players can game this.

I don’t like being one-shot, and it hasn’t happened to me in a very long time. What I was trying to say before seems better, a critical hit and maybe even an execution animation. It’s startling and annoying to just be flattened.

ETA: Oh and critically, we need video of both players in the encounter. I am willing to cut any vids you need.

[AxeIsAnnoying]

@Barnes

how weird things get with bad performance.

Oh yes, I remember fighting in front of a huge base and the player positions updated every 5 seconds.

But I recreated it in Singleplayer. And I would really appreciate it, if more players would investigate it and share their test results, be it online or coop.

[Barnes]

@AxeIsAnnoying

But I recreated it in Singleplayer. And I would really appreciate it, if more players would investigate it and share their test results, be it online or coop.

I must have missed that. Easy enough then.

[karlabear]

@CodeMage

Honestly, I couldn’t care less who you were supposed to be talking to. You were being toxic towards a whole group of people that happens to include me. And you’re not the only one. It’s something that has been happening since I joined these forums years ago, and it has only grown worse lately.

You sure type alot to me, for someone who doesnt care

@CodeMage

There’s nothing to figure out. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been on a thread where people like you would say the same things, and I’m really sick of it.

So you are telling me i cant tell people what to say and what not to say, while being angry about what i said. hopefully you can see how absurd that makes you look.

@CodeMage

Oh, it’s not just according to me. I bet @Ulyssi is having a laugh at how you’re calling him a roleyplayer and putting things in “terms he may better understand”. Yes, you are condescending, and you’ve done plenty to demonstrate it.

at no point have I ever tried to hide the fact that im condescending. im laughing at the fact that you are saying im condescending, while yourself being condescending. Atleast I know what I am.

@CodeMage

How?

You make people choose when they enter the forum, if they want to join PVE forum or PVP. Could be an option. maybe a bit too technical for you i dont know.

@CodeMage

Oh, yeah, good thing you’re not condescending and I was just imagining that…

look 2 messages up for my reply to this.

@CodeMage

Right, so how come the common reaction when people say “hey, maybe instead of nerfing this we might buff something else or maybe do this third thing” is to tell them to shut up?

the common thing you say. But as far as I can tell, im the only one. So how do we determine what is common? Because you in your mind have decided thats how its gonna be, its now considered common? are you gonna provide us with some evidence to this claim, or just spew out some random words and hope something sticks?
okay whos next?

@Barnes

On a PvP server, if you got no chops, you shut up. I have learned recently that this is not acceptable among some people of the gentler sort, and I am therefore reducing the temperature in my public discourse. The truth of the matter is, if you have no combat experience (on a server), piping up about it like an expert will get you shortlisted for a visit from Yog. Offering weak solutions will get you clan-kicked and curb-stomped. Etc.

i strongly agree with you on this one. And that is what ■■■■■■ me off tbh. Why do i have to waste my time “convincing” someone that my statement is true, when i know for a fact its true through my experience. thats the only reason i mentioned my amount of hours in the first place. To show them im not a 50 hour Andy talking nonsense.

@Ulyssi

I roleplay as an official server PvPer.

With all due respect, i highly doubt that.

@erjoh

Because it’s Frankenstein’s monster now. Every tweak in the system in updates breaks something else in the balance scheme. Nerfing without digging into why was the weapon/armor/mount is out of sync with the rest of the game is a sure fire way to make the game ugly and complicated and when that happens, all of us PVP and PVE folks suffer. I can only hope that 3.0 has redeveloped the entire system thinking of benfits and weaknesses of all the weapon types and combat situations (inlcuding horses).

i get what you are saying, but the “quick fix” is the nerf. what you are talking about is a complete system overhall. im not gonna write to funcom thats what they need to do, and my advice would be for you not to either. haha

[Ulyssi]

@karlabear

With all due respect, i highly doubt that.

I value neither your respect nor your opinion so

@karlabear

Why do i have to waste my time “convincing” someone that my statement is true, when i know for a fact its true through my experience.

Because just like you think I am lying, others can think you are. Is this really lost on you?

[erjoh]

@AxeIsAnnoying

Well, I just want people to experience the same experience that I have.

I know I’ve been randown by the horses of death many many times. Yes it’s frustrating but FC purposedly put horse combat into the game and I believe it’s here to stay. There is the discussion and debate over this and then there is practical response to it. I love that we are talking about it but that isn’t helping anyone that is facing this day in and day out. The practical aspect of it…avoid them like you would a thrall with SoC. It’s really the only option people have due to layers of issues that compound a full speed hit from a lance carried by a stat min-maxer. I mean in all seriousness the largest issue here is Siptah builds allow you to be a monster and that is multiplied when on horse. There is no balance to it…no one can claim even remotely that a +9 strength benefit on ONE piece of light armor that can negate it’s one negative (low protection) with another piece of light armor that equate the entire set to near heavy armor protection. Your complaint isn’t about horses but about min-maxers using the uber cool stuff in Siptah to become game trolls as pointed out by Kiki. It is because of these things in Siptah that I really don’t even talk to people on the Siptah map because the only counter is avoidance as troll clans on the server bash eachother up. Getting precise data on how F up it is isn’t going to shine enlightenment on anyone. The real affect data is there…you can get one shotted from a horse and due to internet issues and rendering, you may not even know it happened till about 2-5 seconds after you died. Because of the effectiveness of this, it has now become a cancer on officials.
Those that do it, know this. Those that receive it, know this. Those that don’t do their research to understand it won’t bother reading a report that is generated by someone else either meaning those that don’t care still won’t care even if your quantify it. I don’t know…maybe I’m just down in the dumps on this topic because the cries have been made ever since the horse introduction and it’s just gotten worse not better in the revisions of the game.

[Taemien]

@karlabear

why is it so bad talking about nerfs? the more balanced the game is, the more enjoyable its gonna be to the most players.

This thread as an example, the moment someone called for straight nerfs, it went off the rails. What good comes out of these statements:

This needs to be nerfed.
This needs to be removed.
Roleplayers don’t know what they are talking about.
PVE doesn’t understand PVP.

The reason people have made those statements in this thread is NOT for balance, but to insult other players. Even the first statement. “This needs to be nerfed.” Isn’t made to help oneself, its to harm another. In this thread’s example, those who simply say ‘nerf this’ don’t really care about the Lance, they just don’t want people who use them to have any fun.

By removing simple nerf calls, it forces people to engage in an actual discussion instead of belittling other players.

@karlabear

a better idea would be to split the communities up in pvp and pve. that way we dont need to have the flower specialists comment on the balancing on a pvp mechanic.

This is a strawman and an ad hominem wrapped up in one. The majority of people in this thread play either PVP straight up or play PVE-C. Besides, any changes to Lances affects PVE too. PVP and PVE are intertwined in CE, that’s a fact set in stone at this point. Separating the two is a fantasy.

[karlabear]

@Ulyssi

I value neither your respect nor your opinion so

yet here you are typing to me. funny how that works.

@Ulyssi

Because just like you think I am lying, others can think you are. Is this really lost on you?

yes this is very lost on me, cause im still not fishing for your opinion. as a matter of a fact i would much rather you kept it to yourself, as i said earlier. you are part of the problem.

@Taemien

This thread as an example, the moment someone called for straight nerfs, it went off the rails. What good comes out of these statements:

This needs to be nerfed.
This needs to be removed.
Roleplayers don’t know what they are talking about.
PVE doesn’t understand PVP.

The reason people have made those statements in this thread is NOT for balance, but to insult other players. Even the first statement. “This needs to be nerfed.” Isn’t made to help oneself, its to harm another. In this thread’s example, those who simply say ‘nerf this’ don’t really care about the Lance, they just don’t want people who use them to have any fun.

By removing simple nerf calls, it forces people to engage in an actual discussion instead of belittling other players.

i think you are way off on this one my guy.
talking about nerfs/buffs of certain items in the game, help the overall gameplay experience. for both pvp and pve. now i get that sometimes it will become “cry wolf”. But overall its only a good thing wanting to balance what is very very very unbalanced.

@Taemien

This is a strawman and an ad hominem wrapped up in one. The majority of people in this thread play either PVP straight up or play PVE-C. Besides, any changes to Lances affects PVE too. PVP and PVE are intertwined in CE, that’s a fact set in stone at this point. Separating the two is a fantasy.

yes its not something thats easy. But its easier than having to convince a bunch of pve players to hide their ego for a second and listen to someone who actually knows what they are talking about. as proven so far in this thread.