I in TSW played mostly AR to , but i like yourself was never a jumper, although as i recall it there were those cross faction who did ( their choice wouldn’t be mine )
but again in SWL i play AR & with incendiary grenade you actually do have to jump sometimes to get it to actually land on the target because unlike the grenade elite it just will not fire because of the reticle targeting.
This mechanic in the beginning made it difficult for me to land the grenade but i’m kinda used to it now & i just automatically shift my camera angle when i need to.
I in TSW played mostly AR to , but i like yourself was never a jumper, although as i recall it there were those cross faction who did ( their choice wouldn’t be mine )
(warning verbose information inc as per from me)
I recall the issue with the “Bunnyhopping” and when it arose in TSW, mainly in PVP. I never saw it in a dungeon nor anywhere else. There was this Templar who did it all the time when it was realised, I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) it broke animation so you could get more hits? I’m not entirely certain -
I played mainly Fist/pistol or Fist/chaos being a healer and was hammer/pistol for anti heal. I tried the bunnyhop thing with AR and found there to be nothing that would break animation like they suggested, perhaps i just couldn’t get it to work the same way i dunno, I found it actually broke your own ability from being able to be cast - because you were jumping, which put an end to a very short test using the AR in PVP.
However the issue in SWL with AR jumps i believe comes from the two very different ways in which the IG and HEG work in relation to the reticle and the option of Simple ground targeting not applying the same way.
One (the Incidinary Grenade) is a GTAoE the other (the High Explosive Grenade) is a TAoE -
The issue being with reticle target and actual target.
Screenies below with examples of my findings that have bothered me immensely since using it.
Here I am using “Burst Fire” - it lands fluidly, perfectly and without issue - however - note how the reticle is not actually pointed at the target - its pointing to the floor AND off centre, in fact in between two Anima sims.
Yet still, I can hit this Anima sim as if TAB target has it locked for me. - Simple and easy. Wonderful.
But when i go to use Incidinary Grenade - The GTAoE ability has a completely different requirement.
It automatically places the GTAoE directly where the Reticle is pointing - so it requires me to use my mouse to move it into position or if it’s in front - i can jump to land the reticle at its feet for easy placement -
I will add that The Ultimate Ability also is a GTAoE but DOES NOT require you to use it in the same way as this - so both are very different indeed.
Here you can see the ultimate has just been cast from the same angle and did not require me to move anything at all. My guess is that this is because of Simple Ground Target option - which enables you to land the GTAoE of the Ultimate Ability directly onto the target at its feet, just like it describes it does - even if it’s not on your reticle target, this is also exactly the same for HEG, no need to do anything except fire away and it lands onto the target you were firing at anyway - so, Why does IG not work in the same way?
My only conclusion is that somewhere in the tampering of the mechanics of how these abilities work with the GTAoE and TAoE is that Incidinary Grenade has somehow been left off the Simple Ground Target list or is completely broken somehow in it’s targeting methods - by mistake or design? Who knows - But the only way to land an IG is if you have your screen reticle level with the target and looking directly at it or jump to land it on the target so it doesn’t affect the comfortability of your chosen screen placement angle - which for me is of around thr 45 degree right angle mark and not level - I personally DO NOT play looking directly at ANY target - its the worst view to have in any dungeon,
In the aspect of this working in PVP i don’t think it would be possible to pull off well or at all and would be most likely impossible to use in SWL PVP given that people move around so much so trying to land an IG on anyone would be nigh on impossible, only the Elite would be able to be used effectively - if at all - there were much more potent builds being used in the last shambala match than AR users
What works for stationary targets such as dungeons, regionals and megas as it were - doesn’t work on human players who have thought capability to move with strategic ability.
You can learn the mechanics of any dungeon or raid, hell it’s been proven that with enough practice at it you can play it upside down - it’s just routine. Even a monkey can play a game. But PVP is very, very different. Even by Chris’s own knowledge he knows that PVP has very different elements that are unique to gameplay and should be treated as such.
TBH this is my main reason i stopped using AR because of the very badly designed mechanic behind one if its most highest sources of its DPS. I play only via keyboard i do not use a mouse except for clicking in the inventory, the agents, yes/no - basically all the things NON gameplay related - everything else i.e abilities, movement etc for gameplay i use keyboard so this to me was not ideal - whereas i had absolutely ZERO problems with this in TSW - because we had TAB targeting.
Here is another issue with it - the tank requests us to kill, in the following order the ever so familiar B _ I _ C
yet if you look closely, I am hitting THROUGH Brutus and actually hitting Cassius. This lasted throughout the majority of the fight, even when i got flames on me and ran around, by the time i got back i was still somehow targeting Cassius with absolutely NO WAY to shift it off him.
Vital fights like this that require target selection (Dr Klein and the adds is another example) is what will make it difficult in both PVP and PVE. Even as healer on Klien - i have to jump to land my reticle onto Klien, so i can see casts. Due to me having the angle i play at which is most comfortable - the reticle is pointing to the ground, i often run up to him to make the reticle look at his feet to keep some kind of lock on him.
The reticle system as it is now is shockingly bad and TAB target is merely just turned off in game with a reticle overlay onto the screen, they could very easily turn it back on and have it as an option just like reticle was an option to have back in TSW. I have no idea why they would not do so when posed with problems such as the AR causes with targeting. I’ve found myself running around the Oni camp in Kaidan frustrated at the fact i am still targeting an already shot at and busted up Oni cache while being smacked in the face by it’s overseer - not Funn at all.
I would like to add that the people i see using the “Jump” method for the purpose to break ability casts the most - is a tank using Raging Volcano.
The AR user using the jump method it seems is trying to cope with something that looks completely borked as it is.
If other people may have other issues they would like to report with weapons then they should do so.
I know also that my pistols for no apparent reason spin a matching set of chambers when i’m not even using them, i might have used active dodge or ran through a doorway and there they go - spinny spinny onto white, blue or red.
These are your chosen weapons and ones you love to play with the most - Chris seems very open to ideas and has mentioned that there will be changes to the re-balancing of weapons - which includes the abilities and passives they are in and TBH if the information as regards what is problematic for us in both PVE and PVP and how best to adjust it isn’t readily available for the systems guy to pick away at - then we will have no-one to blame but ourselves for not highlighting with a sense of urgency the true roots of the problems and how best to manage or adjust them.
I will keep a check on how well the weapons (including abilities) i choose to use, perform in both PVE and PVP.
This was actually my experience also. To add to that even without jumping around like a bunny I was able to top kills with an AR build quite consistently so I’m more inclined to believe that “bunny hopping” was more of a play style used by a select few notable dps players then it was an advantageous exploit of some type. I think in terms of reaction time it allowed dps players to spin around faster and is a fairly typical play style for a lot of first person shooters.
Also a very common theme in PvP is “OMG I can’t beat x player, that thing hes doing is unusual it must be an exploit.”
Aye, i wasn’t all that bothered about the bunny hop in general, as it really didn’t affect me at all, except i would find myself often saying “Will you bloody stay still you little !”
Thank the Forum-Gods for emoji’s
Blessed are the cheesemakers
That won’t happen scratch
Even if i have to come here and start doing
“Granny went to the market and bought some eggs”
Granny went to the market and bought some eggs
Granny went to the market and bought some eggs
After Chris said that PvP is not dead and Fusang… I have found myself playing again and tweaking Signets. Heck, I even spend some real money for Agent stuff and Cache keys.
you can always bet on irrationality, everyone knows
Anyway, the real question is. Did he (and others who for some reason want PvP and just from “we would like” talks buy things that are completely irrelevant to PvP) spend enough to pay the paychecks for all those guys (and their accountants and managers) needed to make it happen?
If so, it would be good idea to hire/transfer extra guys to do it. If not…
My old friends left because there was nothing ahead, no announcement, no information about what and when might come. And after 3 months each of them stopped even asking if there is anything new. And only very few came for ND and left just after because it’s short to spark the light by itself and the memory of long months of nothingness works against the will to stay.
So if just talking about what a team has done in last 14 days is that much expensive that you just hope you will be able to make a letter in 2 months. How much would have been sacrificed in order to do “balancing and rework”?
PvP is constant balancing mess. In PvE all you have to deal is people complaining that some weapon, some skill is weaker then the other. But it doesn’t matter because making one weapon stronger only makes PvE easier for everyone so it’s only personal pride that is challenged. In PvP it becomes s***storm because better weapons go against you. And in trying to catch this falling PoS they make changes they don’t understand and just “hope” they somehow solve “the problems”. Like they did in TSW. It was wise to avoid that completely in SWL since they can’t make those two domains separated completely.
I would rather skills been finally fixed after 9 months! New content, new systems. And anything drown in the impossible tryouts to balance meaningless PvP here while ruining PvE just drains the resources out. And it would’ve been hell of the work as you might’ve seen in the last event and how some “specialties” perform and work. There so many broken things in terms of PvP balancing. And Fusang would make it even more insane with more people in.
Just a different point of view
I think the re-balance of weapons and skills was always going to happen, it always does and is a constant thing regardless. Because getting it right and being the right and final time it’s right, is something that would probably never happen. But skill re-balancing and weapon re-balancing will always remain a constant. They have people for that already i assume. It affects both PVE and PVP as you know - you can’t really keep the two separate in that regards. It’s also the most cost effective way or they would be wasting their own profit in trying to do things separately, now i don’t see them doing that, do you?
Assets are already available when it comes to design so they don’t really need to be designing anything new since they already have it, so there isn’t really a drain from any resource. I don’t see them going out of their way to waste more money again on designing something new when they have 3 perfectly good zones to chose from, that had already working initiatives. It’s also the most cost effective way, i don’t see them doing anything different, do you?
The radio silence of yesteryear seems to be at an end, Chris seems very forthcoming and full of ideas and answers, as well as being open to suggestions - or else he wouldn’t have asked the general rabble what they would like to see next. Nor would the reason for the absence of a 2018 roadmap not have been explained on the financial reports (they wanted to engage with the community and get a feel for what they wanted so they had a direction - that is clear now) - i assume this is to avoid wasting what profit they have gained from people who have paid for patronage, paid to max gear, paid for aurum with cash etc etc
I’m pretty certain skills and weapons are being worked on as we speak and have been for months, things just take time and with the primary focus being on story content, which is absolutely fine - the acknowledgement that the PVP community is still important to the devs - straight from the horses mouth as it were - is some very great news indeed. It may shatter some people illusions they once had that the PVP or group contnet community, were of little consequence - when it ranked one of the highest suggestions on this, their official forum and the popularity of this thread alone - speaks volumes.
This PVP thread is one of the most popular on the forum and the last PVP event saw 146 unique names out of 75% of recorded matches - names were verified along with matches played. That in itself is an achievement that had every odd stacked against it - and despite being constantly marginalised by other portions of the community - came out on top in spectacular triumph.
Despite the popular and ye olde belief that PVP is dead and not worth looking at - the contrary has indeed, in this case - been proven.
The fact remains - the more you cater to as many people as possible instead of just one - the more people will stay and play - or else you risk many in their droves looking for other games to play - never to return. As you yourself are aware in the many months you have been playing for.
The PVP event previous saw many old players of PVP return and many first time players who had never even experienced the fun to be had playing PVP.
Currently the Shambala zone is not ideal, the zone itself is actually meaningless, but PVP isn’t, it has a loyal following, we know that and the devs know that - but things take time. I’m ok with time.
The PVP community at large are mostly using that zone for it’s scheduled events and i would hope, be making some valid arguments and pointing out it’s many flaws in a coherent manner for the devs to work on when the time arises.
If nobody plays it then they will never know - but thanks to Drenneth and the PVP community and to those who joined in, the past match event proved this - “Build it, and they will come”
For a long time I was of the opinion similar to you that PvP would put too much of a strain on there resources however each time a question has been raised on the forums about the content people want to see or a post about the topic in general has been raised or simply the success of a PvP event that was frantically put together last minute as a trial it makes me realize more and more how much it may in fact be in funcoms best interest.
Don’t get me wrong there is some key issues I’d like to see them resolve in PVE but just like yourself I’ve seen more then 90% of the people I knew for years dwindle away after the release of SWL and that is quite simply out of boredom. PvP offers dynamic replay able content for players of all levels in the game. It never become static and ability balancing only adds to its dynamic nature. It also offers a challenge which is equally missing from SWLs content currently.
Lastly I think it could turn a large profit for Funcom. Unlike PVE where BIS is the end of the story. PvP there is rarely such a thing and it would make far more use of many of the weapons and tails that Funcom has taken the time to design which the PVE community won’t touch with a ten foot pole.
Corns gone Wild
“meaningless” as without any reason, any consequences, or any link to whatever the game actually does. Just separate map, only good for shortterm “themed” skirmishes. Which from work and balancing point of view just doubles the effort needed to change or introduce anything.
Thing is, people like these skirmishes but for whatever reason instead of seeking games that are all about these skirmishes (and actually doing them good because they don’t care about PvE or story) they tried to put them into games where they don’t even make sense (hello Tomb Raider Multiplayer, great spending of resources, people loves PvP, they demand PvP).
It’s same as when you read something like “oh, this game is all bad” and someones replies “no, with friends it’s fun”. What it means is that you can have fun with friends doing literally anything, even starring into white wall, for a time. The game is still bad.
So yes, sure, it’s “fun”. But you would have the same fun anywhere. It’s not “Secret World” what makes PvP fun. It’s not some integral part that would chance where story goes. Or some original game mechanic that would make it fun (like playing pack wolves in LOTRO pvp at least). It’s not even about factions, if they ever mattered, like they even don’t.
That’s what “meaningless” means. If I meant “fun” I would have said “not fun PvP” instead.
You know why they picked Shambala as the PvP mode for TSW? And why so many people played it in early days (well, they love PvP ofc). And why nobody plays it now even when it obviously is so much fun, bringing an event as an example?
While I think @Drenneth is doing great job utilizing whatever remnants there are left, and while I would not oppose content just because I don’t like it, I also think it should never harm to be “the other guy” in the “closed group” where “confirmation bias” takes so easily over.
So when you, Scratch, used kinda illogical behavior as an example of “what people want” it should not harm to see there is still other POW. And as you try to protect what you like, I try to protect what I like.
(And also teasing Drenneth about PvP ofc.)
Does it really have to be an either or situation. I am a TSW/SWL player and have enjoyed EVERY aspect of the game. I have role played, I have organised and been part of PVP events and PVE events, hell I’ve even role played in PVP (Ardri you are missed)
I have for 4 years spent nearly every Thursday (barring sickness or classes) been part of the Beyond the Veil podcast, discussing PVP and PVE content and championing both. Now I am not saying this all for a pat on the back or those “get a life Veri” comments but to illustrate that me, as a player , who identifies as a PVPer, contributes to all aspects of the game.
So why don’t we all just support each other and make this game as attractive to all players, no matter what your preference is for content…
That is one thing that made TSW so attractive. By the end of my journey in TSW I had over 340 days played and probably half of that was in PvE activities the other half in PvP. It’s the one reason I stuck around so long. Whats more is that I found between the two communities the PvP community was far more stable. PvP players made the own content, there own challenges and there was always room to improve or adapt.
@Elenoe I do appreciate your point of view and with all honestly if someone had asked me the same thing before I got into PvP in TSW I would have given the same response as you. I can’t recall if you said you played PvP much in TSW but I should add that Shambala was easily the worst PvP zone. And the “skirmishes” your referring to were only a thing in Shambala. Eldorado, Stonehenge and even Fusang perhaps especially Fusang were far more involved, I would change builds 10 - 20 times in a single match if the opposition was clever. We are both passionate about different aspects of the game and there’s nothing wrong with that. SWL left half of the game back in TSW and In the process of doing so lost a very long standing and loyal part of there community.
The reason i found TSW so attractive was it’s unique elements.
I’m not a fan of wizards and warlocks or animal type creatures such as guinea-knights, i don’t really like the manga/anime style <<<(replace C with P - i’m not allowed to say it ) looking imagery of the other games, they seem to have a selective audience they aim for, that audience is not me. I don’t like the metal clad sword plundering or top down view or - well i don’t like any other games because TSW/SWL set a benchmark for all other MMO’s that for me, they simply could not compare with - and still don’t - not by a long shot.
For me, it has the unique element of the human approach to conspiracy theory and legend, Myths brought to life as it were. (i’m a Flat-Earther and proud of it) But ultimately, it’s the community as a whole that had kept me logging in for years, and it was the community migration to SWL from TSW that brought me here and has kept me here to this day.
The fact one likes PVP more than any of its other content it has to offer, has absolutely no bearing on the matter, as the game in it’s entirety - is a whole package.
Just like making the best curry - you miss out one ingredient and it’s just not as good - that’s a fact.
The only thing that’s missing for me, is the decent PVP we had before, it should be returned - and i’m sure it will be. (along with the other missing content that i am looking forward to being added too)
TBH the only thing that kept me logging in to TSW daily and staying all day, was PVP - i loved it! So for me, a PVPer - it had every meaning to it. I loved to play with my friends and i loved to hate my enemies. The very reason i chose a side was so i could fight against the other, (and i was on all sides eventually - not just one) The fact that the presence of such isn’t here yet and i stress the term YET - (because Chris has said he would like to bring more faction related content) doesn’t make any of it, less meaningful.
I echo Drenneths comments about the Skirmish of Shambala - because the other zones were anything but skirmishes. We don’t want what shambala currently has to offer and they were wrong to choose it with the reason they gave, they know that.
I also echo Verittas comments - We love TSW/SWL and all it has to offer, but just because we as PVPers have preference doesn’t mean they like any of the others any less. We want it all to thrive on and in the best way possible - and that is to be all inclusive - not marginalised or cut off or left out.
SWL is unfinished - we are here to help build the future.
And it shall be glorious.
Exactly. A mistake that displayed how Funcom was so out of touch with the community.
We abolutely need at least one of the other PvP battlegrounds.
I don’t know why they cut so much of the PvP when it is a cheap source of endless player-generated content that can be as competitive as the population can be.
Presumably because Funcom chose to willfully delude themselves into thinking the by far most meaningless PvP play mode was popular for how it worked as a play mode, as opposed to the ridiculously too high by comparison special signet rewards (and on some days, ridiculously easy BB challenge completion, too)?
I’m sure if SWL Shambala gave awesome exclusive signets and counted as a main - or even just side - mission for dailies, people would still be all over SWL Shambala.
This is actually one of my bigger worries for Fusang making a potential return in SWL. Unless it actually ties into dailies somehow, given how involved really getting into that play mode is, I fear hardly anyone but core PvPers would ‘waste’ their limited play time. That would give Funcom false “proof” nobody wants to PvP.
It is a concern of mine also. I know there are mixed opinions on rewards for PvP, however I feel like PvP needs a spark, had the old PvP zones been in place at launch I think the rewards would not have been a massive concern because there would still be a larger presence in the PvP community to get the ball rolling so to speak. However in the games current state I think reward becomes an important factor as it gives incentive for new players to give PvP a try and hopefully progress to enjoy PvP and remain a part of the PvP community.
I was impressed by the number of players that turned down rewards during the Shambala event anything from Agarthan caches to Anima touched weapons because they were just glad to see PvP alive again so that spirit still exists in some.
Actually PVPers have a tendency to scream very loud about balance and changes for their minority of a game have an unpleasant tendency to **** things up for everyone else.
As long as they agree to balance abilities independent of PVP concerns and the offical answer to “X IS UNBALANCED IN PVP” is to go cram it up your ■■■, I have no problem with them adding it to the game.