Yeah, I’m not a fan of the “appeal to authority” logical fallacy either. Points and ideas should stand for themselves regardless of who presents them. @CodeMage has had some great input on the subject and it shouldn’t be dismissed just because he plays PvE. (not saying anyone is dismissing it)
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Yeah, I totally get that argument for building codes and styles. For common weapons tho, besides bombs and stuff of course, umm, yeah, not so much.
Of course it should matter. I play mostly PVE-C, but the vast majority of my fights end up with me either dead or running away. In short, I don’t actually know how to PVP well, so I’ll offer my input when it comes to PVE and leave the PVP aspects to the people who know more and care more.
I’m not saying PVP players are the only ones whose opinion matters here. I’m saying that I don’t know enough to give a good opinion on things they’re discussing right now, and I’m satisfied that they’re not discussing things that I do care about. 
Yeah, that’s bull, and when it pops up I call it out. I think I either expressed myself poorly or you misunderstood me 
Me neither, but it’s not an appeal to authority fallacy to recognize when I’m out of my depth. If I started giving my opinion on whether it’s enough to merely shorten the reach of the initial light attack, that would be like someone telling me they can code a non-trivial software feature in 1 day 
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I understood you (I think)… I’m attempting to make the case that a PVE’er opinions and observations are nearly or just as, legit as a PVP’ers - and visa-versa - and about either play mode - when it comes to how weapons behave. A good PVE player will be equally as good at PVP and a good PVP player will be equally as good at PVE. And even those who are good at neither, are or can be, aware of how the weapons behave and their strengths and weaknesses.
Anyway, whatever… back to lurking on this one I think. 
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Oh absolutely not. I did not mean to insinuate that. It’s an appeal to authority fallacy if someone says your input is invalid simply because you’re not a PvP’er.
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I think you’re deriving incomplete conclusions from what some people are saying. All daggers are OP and silly.
There are two daggers in particular that are great for PvP, but all are pretty darn good. They’re all silly.
Reliable bleeds, regardless of armor. Heck, damage completely ignores armor.
We know why this was done, and it’s sad but true. It’s cheaper to just let the knives go through armour. Shouldn’t armour above Light negate a silly little LIGHT blade thrust?
I would like a reengineering of knives to make them actually PART of a balanced diet. As it is, you can knife your way through this game from top to bottom and that seems a bit, well, cheap.
On the contrary. A PvPer knows what it feels like to be caught.
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That is irrelevant. Just because a PvPer knows what it feels like doesn’t mean that a PvEer can’t make good arguments or give good input on the subject. If a PvPer and a PvEer both gave the same idea on a PvP subject; would you just listen to the PvPer and dismiss the PvEer?
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The thing is, if you let a PvP veteran who knows each weapon in and out, has perfect dodge timing, flawless stamina management and knows how to pressure the opponent, fight a PvE player, who never fought a player in this game. You will 100% see that the PvE player is getting stomped.
So why would the opinion of said PvE player be the same value as the PvP veteran’s in a pure PvP related discussion?
In other words why should a Rookie’s opinion have the same value in a discussion where Experts are asked ? Then we could also go and let children run our countries…
Out of lurk mode again already… oops…
No, daggers are very affective against metal armor. Any point-on weapon attack is. Plate armor negates edge-on slash attacks where the surface area is large. Hit a tin can by swinging a sharp knife 
edge-on, at it. The can 
likely bends and dents. Now stab it point-on… it slips right through - almost effortlessly. And a tin can is about the same as plate armor of old. Chainmail was invented to try and negate some of the puncture that plate armor was so susceptible to.
Maybe these considerations are too complex for CE tho? At least in it’s current state?
Sure, that’s a totally different thing than knowing how a single weapon 
behaves and what is good or bad about it.
Because we’re not talking about using all of the facilities in the combat system to make an affective and successful attack or defense. We’re talking about the aspects of a single weapon and it’s behavior. Players will always find the most advantageous combinations of potions, armor, weapon rotations, weapon mods, food, movements, and so on, for the play-mode they’re in. That’s a different topic IMO.
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Honestly, weapon damage, dot will never be balanced. Because there is no risk in missing. Somewhere in the attack Calc is stamina per swing per weapon. In that Calc needs to be a “hit/miss”, and when missed a xx% increase in stamina used. Then spamming one attacks with any meta like daggers has a negative if I can dodge. This would add skill to timing and setting up attacks. right now it is a game of outbstamming even while you miss attacks. That would help alot. Again, for every nerf, a new meta rises because the dps is the only driving number.
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Maybe, but I don’t think so:
If something doesn’t break the balance, then it’s not “overpowered”, by definition. I respect your PVP experience, but I’m not going to take just your word as gospel if there are others who with comparable level of experience who seem to disagree with you
I’m personally fine with that, as long as it doesn’t break what I care about as a PVE player. And you know that I’ll be loud if you guys propose something that does break it 
You guys are talking past each other. No discussion is ever “pure PVP”. I’ll trust PVP players when it comes to PVP aspects of their arguments, but I stubbornly refuse to keep quiet about PVE ramifications of those arguments. And there will always be PVE ramifications, as long as Funcom doesn’t completely separate PVP and PVE modes (which I bet they’ll never do).
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RNG = Skill ???
Oh and btw if you are “spamming one attacks with any meta like daggers” makes you pretty much predictable in a fight, doesn’t it? I mean the claim here is that daggers are OP because you only need to spam left click with target lock, right? And poison application.
Poison application is easily handled → Antidotes
Spamming left click only → as I said → predictable → change strategy if your current one fails
Me, who knows stuff in PvP combat, suggested that keeping distance and abusing the stagger mechanic works for me (aka using a spear).
So why do we need to introduce RNG in order to remove skill from the combat? Instead of taking what got advised here, trying it out and posting the results.
You can come here and tell me that I talk nonsense, but provide me some evidence that you tried what I suggested (not talking directly to you, but to all people).
Then I can evaluate if you did the correct thing and give you more hints to get better at fighting daggers.
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The opinion is what matters. Not who has the opinion. The opinion should be argued on its own merit. Just because you’re a PvP expert doesn’t mean that you can’t be wrong about a PvP matter and just because you’re a PvEer doesn’t mean you can’t be right about a PvP matter.
The authority that presents the idea or opinion should make no difference on if that idea or opinion is good or not. Does that make sense?
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That’s what I meant, trust the people who have knowledge in their field. I would much rather go to a doctor or professor of biology and ask for advice, than some first semester biology student.
Yes, I can be wrong, but NOBODY is even attempting to prove me wrong. In other words:
The evidence can be done in form of video recording. Find a buddy and do some practice with him.
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The most important part of your net game in tennis comes down to guessing, around 45 percent of the time. This can be based on intuition, your opponent’s “tells,” or simple patterns, but it’s still a guess. A lot of sports is like this.
I believe that’s what they and I want for randomness.
As long as the combat system is complex enough that the tells can be ambiguous, you don’t need randomness. And frankly, the last thing this damn game needs is more RNG, especially if we’re now talking about introducing it into combat 
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Now you’re using a strawman fallacy. I’m not saying that you’re wrong. I’m explaining why you can’t dismiss ideas or opinion just because of who those ideas and opinions are coming from.
Doctors and professors of biology and experts in their fields get stuff wrong all the freaking time. You can’t just go by what someone says because they have authority in a field. How many experts around the world thought they knew how to handle the canoro vuris? How many different opinions were there on the matter?
The point is that debate is about getting to the truth of a matter and you can’t do that by dismissing the opinions and ideas of people based on their backgrounds. Instead ideas and opinions should be dismissed or accepted based on their own merit and scrutiny. I can’t make it anymore clear than that
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I’m guessing you are talking to me. The problem with daggers is they are predictable, and once they hit you with first attack they can spame, and the distance they cover allows them to actually use then as a defensible escape.
And not RNG. If you land a hit, cool, stamina drain is as is. If you miss then the small added stamina loss. It replicate “off balance”. To explain, swing a bat as hard as you can at a pinata. then keep doing that and see how it feels when someone yanks it out of they way. Again, if not stamina draw, then a stagger when you miss. BUT thatbwouldnbe alot of extra coding.
If you added this, then their is a way to balance by adjusting each attacks “miss” drain. And It is something that can be practiced to learn not to kiss. Messing with dmg, ap, effects is just changing the ketavto the easiest spam weapon.
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By the way I used xx% as in I don’t know what that value should be set at. I should have used ?% instead. My bad.
Yes but we have that in the game already.
We don’t need some 15% crit chance or 25% miss chance or 10% tip over your toe and fall to the ground chance. RNG like this is just plain uncompetetive. Though it works fine for PvE, because the AI does not care if you crit them.
I totally understand what you mean. Questioning things is important. Non expert opinions/statements can actually be more true than expert ones. But this need to be proven.
Regarding this discussion:
When I see a suggestion from a PvE player, or someone who says he has little knowledge in PvP, I do not toss it away, I read through it, but most of the times I am shaking my head and have to disagree. Some people do not have this time (Funcom).
I have the impression, that Funcom knows little about the PvP in their game. (I have this since 2018). They mostly went with the crowd that cried loudest instead of taking the time and valuating and counterproofing the claims, because of time and resource issues.
All I want is that the people participating in this discussion take my suggestions serious and actually try to proof me wrong. It will surely enlighten a lot of us. Instead of this dry and almost political debate, that leads to nothing. As you already said: “The point is that debate is about getting to the truth of a matter […]”. So let us get to the truth if daggers are really OP and beat everything in the game. We can only get to the truth by trying it.
So what I mean is that Funcom can see proof if the initial claim is true or false. But eventually they have to decide what to do or even do anything.