Yeah, I think CodeMage was right - I think you two talking past each other.
@AxeIsAnnoying asked me about opinions…
I answered and said it was a different topic..
Then @AxeIsAnnoying replied to @biggcane55 about fighting technique against dagger.
But @TenJumpChump thought “tell me that I talk nonsense” and “provide evidence” was about who can have opinions instead of what he was actually replying to… being the dagger defense techniques.
I understand now. Yes that would be an attempt for balance. But we are yet not sure, if daggers are actually OP, right?
I wouldn’t say OP, but definitely less skill based with the small stammisage and stagger effect. I know I use them alot on NPCs, even non poison ones can kill most humanoid 1 skull bosses in @1 minute if done correctly.
So the daggers are easy to use which means the skill ceiling is not as high for (new) players to use them efficiently.
But they are still beatable by other weapons, because they are not OP (or in other words: not too strong).
So the unbalance is that some are not effective/proficient enough with their favorite weapon in order to beat daggers. That’s why we need to put daggers on the same skill-level as other weapons? I don’t think so. Just get good with your weapon and beat daggers. If that is not possible, and you tried everything, then there might be the case, that this weapon is too weak, instead of daggers too OP. Then we need to discuss this again and see if this is actually intended and daggers are a COUNTER to the weapon class you were using.
I mean it’s the path of least resistance for players: easy to use weapon with good results. So the majority uses this weapon and it becomes a META. Yet you can still be effective with other weapons and beat daggers.
So the claim from OP:
Is wrong.
I love dagger players when I sword and board. Stab, block, chop them up while they are stagger swaggering.
Daggers can be ‘tuned up’ as long as everyone’s favorite weapons are tuned up in the same way to be as ‘good’ as the weapons no one uses.
There if everyone’s weapons suck, then none of them do.
In which case you maybe ought to explain that to @Fenharell on the thread where he has made repeated claims that combat in CE is so bad you can’t move and fight at the same time and can only perform combos on the spot - because maybe coming from a PVPer it will convince him, it certainly didn’t make a dent when I explained it…
Yes. That’s how many of us use them in PVE. That, in fact, was the primary point I made to Rigultru - that removing/reducing bleed further will make it irrelevant for it’s one primary task - boss fights - making them longer and more grindy. I’m not really sure what you’re arguing against here.
Sorry amigo, but I’m calling bullsh*t on that one - some PVPers may manage the ‘water off a ducks’ back’ routine - but a whole bunch get offended simply by not immediately getting their own way, let alone a misplaced word. (You yourself admit later, that outside of a PVP setting you would have bristled at a question and ‘no problem’; from a newer player.) My very first interaction with a regular forum PVPer was when he claimed (as so often is) that PVP was ignored by Funcom because they don’t care about it, and I asked if he was kidding. For that grave offense, I was told I was being ‘combative’ and was ‘put on the list’. PVPers are human too, and there are plenty of them that get offended by the slightest word of disagreement, no matter how carefully stated. (Though I do appreciate the clarification of what the op failed to explain.)
Whereas I would suggest that the evidence is somewhat different, and that a lot of the time it’s more about throwing words around and not caring who it offends - and that a lot of the time (as with a certain troll determined to insist that this thread is being attacked by PVEers) the whole intention is to cause offense (makes sense in PVP, an angry opponent is less skillful - the problem is when that same behaviour is carried over into the rest of the world).
And that might well be a fair sentiment - heck, if the op had opened with something like that, maybe the thread would be different. But, like every other thread of its type, the op went straight for demanding nerfs, and offering zero proactive solutions. And, like all threads of its nature, when others point out that we’re getting sick of continuous nerfs and they never wind up resolving anything, we just wind up back to something new being in the crosshairs next week - the result is insults, accusations of ganging up and suggestions that we’re over-sensitive. How can there be a productive discussion when one side’s arguments are so often dismissed as either ignorance or a ‘conspiracy to silence PVP’?
Indeed they can, but under the newer version of bleed none of those weapons can realistically stack bleed, they just take too long to get round to applying it a second (or third time). If daggers go into that category as well, then bleed as a whole is irrelevant. The realism/consistency argument is quite valid - all sharp metal implements should cause bleed. But if we’re going to measure everything by realism, then we also have to remove all magic, all elements of Conan lore, the Giant Kings, Lemurians etc etc. This is a game, and having different weapons do different effects creates a more interesting game. (There may be elements to be debated about relative balance, but that’s not what these threads ever call for.)
Damn right. And there’s been rather a lot of this recently - claims that certain topics should be only for people that play a particular game mode, or only play on particular servers. These are dishonest arguments, especially when the topics being discussed involve changes that impact everyone. Frankly, when I see someone argue in this way, it tells me that their own position is so insecure that they have to try to dismiss opposing arguments by dismissing the source because they can’t debate the substance.
Edited for spelling…
I didn’t want to bring this up in this thread, because it would derail things further. But freak it. Its already there.
Is what I said in response to:
So now I’m going to make my statement a bit more clear.
There is a ton more involved in PVP than simply clicking each other to death and rolling around in an erratic manner. PVP is a quite a bit more than being good at the game. Hell its a lot more than simply even knowing how to play the game. Its about how well you can organize a group (you can be God’s gift to a game, but sitll get overwhelmed by enough noobs if they hate you enough). And perception can go a long way.
There is an instance my friends bring up a lot in conversation about PVP about something dirty in Archeage I was able to pull off. We were playing on a server where we were in what I guess you could call an ‘alpha’ clan. It dominated most of the lucrative loot areas on the server and pretty much had a monopoly throughout a given day (multiple time zones). We had around 300 members.
Understand this wasn’t an incredibly large guild. There were some much bigger. And PVP fights in this game could at sometimes be in the hundreds. But it was big enough to get the job done.
The perception of this guild was that we zerged. Basically just threw numbers at a problem till that problem went away. Which can work. But if your coordinated enough, you can easily wipe out 2-3 or even 5x as many as your number. You can do the same in Conan. Take 8 or 9 randoms trying to take on three people in voice chat with each other. They’re likely going to trounce the unorganized if they don’t have a way of communicating.
Anyway, the perception came not from our numbers, but our ability to call in a decent number of people to an area relatively quickly. Dropping 50 people on a 100 within 3 minutes of an engagement is crazy quick, even in that game.
But enough of all that. The running dig that the server made on this guild was that it was a zerg guild. So instead of trying to prove them wrong. I decided to push them into despair. Because no one in their right mind wants to be ‘just a zerg guild’. They were frustrated and trying to get a rise out of us for some sort of small victory in their heads. You all know how that goes.
So I took a screenshot of our guild member list in game. It showed about ~311 people with about 100 people online. Enough for two raids. So I doctored the screenshot. Made it show 3140 members with about 1100 online. Then posted it to the forums where most of the discussion took place.
Up until that I had been engaging with a lot of these people. Fueling the fire and playing into their confirmation bias. This screenshot should have been an obvious fake, no guild can have 3k members on one of those servers. There’s hardly that many in a faction online at a given time. The logistics and such is obviously not working.
But having fueled that bias for about two weeks made the screenshot irresistible. They took it hook, line, and sinker. This was also after some really dominating PVP battles leading up to that point, including taking 3 out of 4 castles when that content was released.
The end result, well that was really something else.
Entire guilds left the server. Dozens of dozens of players simply quit the game. The PVP fights severely lost their intensity after that. And come to find out, literally hundreds of players just gave up. I mean everyone could see how many members were in their guilds, and the coalition of guilds hoping to gang up on us suddenly found themselves having half as many players as us.
Well… no, they still had 1,500 players to our 300. And they could have done some serious competition. But they gave up before they could play their hand. All because of a little doctored (I mean well doctored I might add), screenshot.
But that’s just an extreme example of what perception can do. In Conan I’ve seen similar things. Where a few buddies and myself having a small clan, but having a large presence by showing up geared to many PVP fights so that when people crossed us, they typically tried to make amends pretty quickly.
There was one time our clan leader got ganked by three people. They took his armor and weapons. One of the clan’s officer of the three immediately contacted us asking if he could return the stuff stolen and work for us for the day to avoid a repercussion. We agreed and had a little worker bee collecting materials for us for the day. Sounds degrading but we were in voice on discord throughout the thing and he turned out to be a pretty chill dude.
He took responsibility for his clanmates’ actions and made them feel like crap that he had to do that. But at the end of the day we became friends and allies. So it was all and all a pretty positive experience.
But that is real PVP. Not this click each other crap everyone seems to think it is. PVP has consequences good or bad. PVP has intrigue, nuance, politics. Sometimes even espionage. Fighting in game is only one of the manner avenues people can utilize to dominate the map.
But there you go, that’s enough derailment there. But one thing I would say even after all that is its a damn shame many of you won’t see this real PVP. Just killing or being killed by nameless faceless goons. Or some sort of offline raid, either being raided or doing the raiding. What’s the point in all that? If there is no fame or infamy, or earned respect or rivalry, then what’s the point of it?
Thank you for illustrating what pvp is and can be both the dishonorable side and the honorable side.
Oh I have definitely been on both sides of that spectrum. I prefer to fight fairly, and thusfar in Conan I have. But I can be downright dirty if needed or pushed.
But to get things back on track. I still maintain Daggers shouldn’t be touched. They seem fine in PVE (though landing those hits on some creatures is a bit wonky, and maintaining bleeds sucks), they don’t seem that crazy in PVP. But if they were imbalanced compared to other weapons, then I’d like to see those weapons boosted. Starting with the ones no one uses.
Haha… Classic!
True dat. And the structure of Conan makes it hard to achieve - or at least a lot harder than in other games where that was a consideration in the design concept.
Yup, agree. But we might differ in that I think they all indeed should. The suspended animation and doing the air-swing boogie-woogie at the end of every combo and half the single-tap swings is just dumb! Unnecessarily dangerous, unrealistic, and dumb!
Daggers aren’t OP.
They’re easy to use and easy to counter.
TBH a lot of PVP’ers just aren’t that great and don’t find ways to counter.
Feroxic daggers do seem broken though. Or at least they did when I played a couple of months ago. Didn’t do real testing, but seemed like they did way more damage than other supposedly top tier weapons.
Great story, but it is anecdotal after all and doesn’t prove that daggers are OP. What level were the players he was fighting? What skill level were they? What skill level was your clan member? Could he not have done the same thing with other weapons (besides the back flipping of course). I highly doubt a naked guy with stone daggers could take me out with full Redeemed Silent Legion armor and sword, shield and spear with 440+ HP, healing pots and a thrall… There are too many variables that haven’t been addressed and consensus isn’t proof.
Since skill level, attribute builds, and tactics vary greatly between players then I doubt there is a way to prove that daggers are OP and will continue to remain an opinion.
Since there will always be a meta in every multiplayer game, why shouldn’t we embrace the daggers if they are what it happens to be? Like others have said, if the daggers get nerfed to the point where they’re no longer the meta then another weapon class will take their place and become the new meta. How many people will then say that this new weapon class is meta because it’s OP?
People don’t make demands of me in real life. If they try to, they either apologize or say “I understand.” “No problem” is not acceptable and I will tell them to correct themselves.
As it turns out, this player is Mexican. Yo entiendo is much too formal for this setting.
On a server one won’t last long if they jump at every wrong word. This is inversely true here. Let’s face it, I’m a nasty prick, but even I can loosen up in the least-friendly of places. What I’m saying is we all could loosen up a bit here, where we’re mostly among friends.
And for the record, I want the same love they applied to the katana to shine through on the knives.
Whether I PvP or not is irrelevant (I do PvP). Your post only stands as a flimsy anecdote and opinion. You failed to answer any of my questions and then called my build a joke. Backflip all you want. Backflipping does zero damage. Backflip through my poison arrow gas clouds after I stack cripple on you 
I don’t think you want to debate the matter. I think your mind is made up and you just want to share your opinions.
Different socio-linguistic backgrounds - easy to result in misunderstandings. As it goes, ‘no problem’ in that situation doesn’t bother me at all - culturally it’s become something of a catch all (also often used instead of ‘you’re welcome’ if someone thanks you - though this can often be considered impolite by my parents’ generation). Likewise, I’d hope it’s understood that my words are meant in a friendly tone, even when I disagree with people - but the evidence shows me that is frequently not the way it is taken. If I’m angry with someone, I’ll generally try to make that clear, but these things don’t always come across so well.
As for everyone ‘loosening up’ - I agree, it would be nice - and I’ve had some very interesting debates with people here, sometimes in complete disagreement, but where we’re able to be pleasant throughout. But I think you do also need to recognise the level of frustration that builds up seeing multiple threads each week calling for nerfs (often different nerfs) - often with an op that refuses to even contemplate compromise and swiftly moves to claims either of ‘PVE isn’t a real game mode’ or ‘you only disagree because you exploit x’ in response to even the most reasoned explanation of why ‘nerf or nothing’ is a bad idea. When you regularly face the same crap whether you take the time to lay it out in a friendly fashion and offer counter-suggestions or just flat out tell them ‘no’ - it becomes natural to just say ‘to hell with this’ and go with the simple, direct, blunt approach. And when so many of these threads then get someone popping up, as in this one, and pre-emptively attempting to undermine any arguments by pretending it’s all some ‘anti-PVP conspiracy’, it’s not surprising if people are not going to then calmly debate the original topic - especially as so often the only argument being offered on the other side is ‘nerf or nothing or you suck’. There are people who try to offer legitimate counterpoints (in this case that daggers are an actual problem, explaining what is meant by that, and trying to suggest some legitimate solutions, as you did, and some others) - but it’s very hard to hold a legitimate debate when there’s a bunch of poop-flinging monkeys hooting and hollering.
And yeah - for the record - I’d also be happy to see re-working and rebalancing, on all the weapons - I know it’s something Funcom have talked about wanting to do over time - this game does have multiple modes and it is important that PVP receives a balance that can work, but it gets really tiring to see piece after piece taken away from a game you enjoy (and to have to support that, because in fairness ‘PVP needs x more’) only to be told time and again that ‘PVP is ignored’ and ‘PVP voices are silenced’. (And no, before someone jumps on that as a claim that PVP is favoured - that’s not what I’m saying either - with at least five distinct game modes with different needs, if Funcom divides their time remotely fairly then every group feels at least a bit ‘left out’ - but I see no evidence that PVP is left out any more than any other group, but it is claimed rather frequently, often in response to patches that feature PVP heavy changes.)
All I can really say on the matter is that I’m getting towards a ‘screw this’ nuclear response to the next mindless poop-flinger that wants to demand ‘nerf or nothing’ - so I’m gonna take a couple of days away instead, and see if I can replenish my tolerance for this stuff to somewhat higher levels.
Why do you find “No problem” unacceptable? Is that not a common polite phrase where you’re from? Where I’m from it’s the equivalent of “You’re welcome” or “Anytime”.
Before I say anything else , I purchased the Siptah dlc.
Right out of the gate this is an issue as this weapon is provided for craft from a dlc purchase not the standard Conan Exiles game. This presents an obvious issue.
Next, the pros vs the cons ratio might need a look at on this specific weapon.
The high damage is a bit of a puzzle. Daggers are relatively the same with a few nips and gadgets added for specific purposes, leverage being one or a guard being another.
The business ends, the point and the edge, are, except for ceremonial purposes, are basic fare , and again changes to this are for the specific purpose of specific types of cuts. What is the point ? Making a weapon or tool specialized for any purpose (pros) often makes it illsuited for others (cons).
What specifics to blade edge or point to these daggers justifies increasing their damage above that of other similar weapons ? And where are the con(s) to balance out these (pros) ?
Only if you server transfer and then you got the issue of repair because the raw materials are back in IoS. Don’t get me wrong…I have figured out a work around as a solo player to funnel stuff back and forth but it’s still a pain to do. Also I expect 3.0 to merge the two maps a bit more and so folks in EL may have access to eldarium and their weapon sets.
HOWEVER! What is an issue here is the complete lack of diversity in weapon sets…there is one set of daggers or a spear that is vastily above all others or an armor set that everyone uses that just makes it all a junky game, IMHO. With such variety of items, I would love a more polished review of strengths and weaknesses of armor, weapon types, and weapons within the type. Every bonus needs to have an exploitable weakness and therefore you get variety in play because each person has their own unique style that comes out. Right now…I’m seeing the same armor, the same daggers, the same spear, the same gladius, the same axe. Why? Because there wasn’t a full review of the item and how it meshes with the rest of the items in the game. So instead of a game that is fluid with give and take on all aspects, we get franken-physics Conan where there are clear and obvious tools for success and all others are trash.
Confusing right from the start.
You presented a balance that isn’t a total balance as a solution ?
Not being able to repair the weapon doesn’t make the weapon unusable until it breaks. The issue is that the crafting feat of this weapon with upgraded stats over others on the basic game is only obtainable through purchase of an expansion dlc .
This again presents an obvious issue until this solution maybe happens.
I agree with most of the last paragraph on polishing of weapons . Though, Rock, paper, scissors is not the way in my opinon as it is too static, a boring and lazy balancing technique, imo.