Funcom, time to end the debate. Server TOS

[Nemisis]

@DeaconElie

Hiding a problem does not solve it. Why on earth do you think it does?

If its a violation of language, banning the person is hiding the problem too right? Mute or ban, both result in you no longer seeing toxic behaviour. Only difference is, one is controlled by the player, one is controlled by Funcom. To me, if people have the ability to deal with issues themselves, they should.

@DeaconElie

Yes, I use it as a prime example of all the things wrong with PVP.

You do know putting a sicker over your check engine light doesn’t fix the car, right?

The toxicity in Rust is at levels that will never be possible in Conan. Did you know they added the ability to record voice or music, and for you to spam that through speakers around peoples bases? Imagine logging in to hear nothing but chinese propaganda or Hitler’s speeches. They literally added that toxicity to the game. They also have mute buttons too!

@DeaconElie

You do get PVP players are less then 20% of the over all player base, right?

Ive never seen a true breakdown, but Ill agree with you that official PVP players make up a minority. Then why ban for such trivial things? It affects hardly anyone. Right?

[Nemisis]

@CodeMage

I don’t want to play with people like that.

Welcome to online gaming…where you meet all kinds of people. Good luck ever getting people to get along.

@CodeMage

Now, for the rest of your “arguments”. You remember what we’re talking about in this thread, right?

Yes, but we are getting a bit off course, and for that I do apologize.

@CodeMage

You’re not talking about whether the system is flawed or whether the rules are vague. You’re talking about how you disagree with the rules.

Except that the rules, especially when they come to PVP servers are just…so weak. Pathetic? Stupid? BS? You could use almost any word you like. Youve mentioned before about being walled in on PVE servers, and Ill agree that on PVE servers more moderation should be done since there is no other way to deal with it.

PVP? Come on man, blow it up. Funcom dug themselves into the hole of foundation spam when they made farming way too easy, return rates too high, and removed the ability to mass damage buildings/foundations. In EA and the very early days of launch, we didnt see nearly the issues as we do now.

The fact that people can run around now and report things they dont like because they can to get people banned is a major issue. Ask yourself, is there a difference between spam that does nothing but prevent building (like the spider webs around bases) and open maprooms/walkways/bridges? If you say no, well, then thats sad. If you do see a difference, then youll understand why the rules dont make any sense. If the map was the size of one grid with 40/40 players on it, then sure, youd need tight rules. The map is huge, populations on the vast majority of PVP servers are less then 50%. There is plenty of room for all to build and enjoy the game. How is reporting buildings fun? PVP needs different rules then PVE.

But, since Funcom cant find balance in weapons and armor between the two, I highly doubt they would on something like the rules.

@CodeMage

In short: whether you like the rules or not is not relevant to this topic

Imagine if 10 out of every 50 players felt this way, that the current rules are garbage. Their opinions would be irrelevant too because they differ from your point of view? Remember, I mentioned above that Ive talked to nearly 20 (or 30 I cant remember what I said) people that have played with me and my clan over the last 5 years. Every single one of them laughed at the building rules.

Their opinions on the subject dont matter either? Because its different then yours?

@CodeMage

In fact, I would say that people who argue the way you do are as much of a problem as Funcom’s bad communication about the rules.

Never claimed to be good at what I do. But I do speak out against things I dont like. Change isnt made by being a Yes-Man. Take any government…change happens when you speak up, not when you nod your head all the time.

@CodeMage

The whole “I’m not complaining, I’m just bringing my story up” is the same flavor of dishonest discourse as “I’m not accusing anyone, I’m just asking questions”.

Ive said lots, I am bringing it up to show how stupid the rules are. Likely gonna continue on other thread where its relevant too.

Anyways, after this reply Im going to try to keep it back on track, were getting too far from the OP.

[CodeMage]

@LostBrythunian

Would you suggest a player go to official servers for the best and most complete experience playing Conan Exiles?

No, I wouldn’t. But there’s also no other place I would suggest, either, and that’s despite having played on several private servers and quite a bit of single-player, too.

I think you summed it up rather nicely:

@LostBrythunian

If the current way officials are run is the vision of the game, it’s a tragic game. One whose potential far outstrips it’s masters’ capabilities and vision.

Sadly, yes. That’s exactly how I’ve come to see Conan Exiles.

What I probably should have said is not that the official servers are how we’re meant to play the game, but that they’re supposed to be how we’re meant to play the game. Unfortunately, the official servers are where the metaphorical rubber of the devs’ vision meets the proverbial road of the shіtty G-Portal server specs.

Which means that the whole “survive, build, dominate” turns into “survive the glitches, build sparingly, dominate the latest exploits”, at least on PVP. On PVE(-C), there’s no “dominate” to speak of at all, but that’s a different can of worms.

That said, there’s some stuff in your post that makes me wonder whether I’m failing to understand you, or we just think too differently. For example:

@LostBrythunian

Or are all our building competitions to be considered using the game outside of how the devs intended?

Uh, yes and no. I did say that the purpose of the official servers is to experience the multiplayer aspect of the game the way devs envision it.

The building competitions are quite clearly meant to be an a showcase of individual artistic expression. There’s always the possibility that I’m missing something, but I honestly can’t see how the devs would even imagine a multiplayer experience where you have a finite map and the encouragement for an unbounded number of players to build without any limits, whether self-imposed or enforced through moderation.

Indeed, I have a feeling anyone here would be hard-pressed to find a high-pop PVE(-C) server that never wipes, and doesn’t limit either the population or how much land you can claim.

@LostBrythunian

If the intent has always been to live in narrow spires, why was it only in the time between when the mergers drank half the server base and the coming of the Age of Sorcery that enforcement started?

The enforcement of the rules started before the mergers. The “reporting is the new meta” trope predates mergers considerably.

@LostBrythunian

But it is a deliberately stunted experience.

This is the second time you’ve asserted that in your reply. At the risk of offending people at Funcom, which I regret, I would like to invoke a modified phrasing of Hanlon’s razor: “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence”. And I sincerely apologize for the harshness of that last word, but it was the mildest I could find to describe the continued mishandling of the game. Perhaps someone with better dominion of English could find an even nicer word.

@LostBrythunian

So perhaps this one has chosen to take them at face value because reading deeper gives the impression of every conniving functionary in some decadent empire that was heel when they appeared in the source material.

I understand the bitterness you mention elsewhere in your post – I’m also bitter, although for different reasons – but I would argue that choosing to take them at face value shouldn’t be reserved only for posts that confirm what your bitterness already led you to believe

I feel like you’re deliberately ignoring the explanation Umborls provided for that first post you quoted, because that explanation doesn’t fit into what you believe and you would rather think they’re deliberately stunting the official experience rather than just … blundering around.

[Capt_insano0]

@Nemisis

PVP needs different rules then PVE.

If only this was the case but once again it would be to much extra work on their end. It was a good idea to implement some rules but the follow through is very poor on funcoms part. I’ve just never played or heard of a game that will ban players for such things after spending money on the game. It’s pretty sad tbh

[Nemisis]

It would not be hard at all for different rules on different server types. Its literally a few lines of text on the forum pages. Type a big ole “PVP” tag on one “PVE” on the other. Moderation is just as simple since you have to indicate the server type when filling out a report. The only thing extra would be the person acting on the reports would have to be aware of the different types of rules for each server…which in my mind would be the same as they currently are for PVE, but removal of some for PVP.

@Capt_insano0

I’ve just never played or heard of a game that will ban players for such things after spending money on the game. It’s pretty sad tbh

100%

[Ulyssi]

Sigh, another TOS thread…

@Caroll

Greetings Exiles!

We understand the guidelines aren’t optimal and we are still working on improving them. For this post specifically, we can say that @Kikigirl was perfect in their statement, which is valid for all Landmarks in-game regardless of the ruleset of the Official server:

@Umborls

Our internal documentation does offer our staff guidelines for how to handle each specific exploit. In general, the more severe or impactful they are to the server, the greater our response will be.

I am pretty certain there was a more explicit post from Mayra saying there would be further clarification in the future, but I’m either misremembering (doubt it) or it’s been scrubbed. It seems like they are developing a more robust rule set, though how transparent they will be with it, who knows. I hope they write them with an understanding of WHY players do what they do and not just the WHAT, but on this particular subject I am admittedly jaded.

I am confused about this new-ish argument of “reporting is the new meta”. Is the argument:

• FC is rightfully banning players, but the rules are out of touch with player habits?
• FC is purposely/ignorantly pushing reports and banning people irrespective of guilt?

Because we have had those arguments ad nauseam. “Reporting is the new meta” just reads as whining to me.

[Nemisis]

@erjoh

1)For those that say ‘In PVP, you should be able to take care of it yourselves and are cowardly/weak if you report’…blah blah blah. Look, I work, I raise my kids, I try to be a good husband…I am not logging into a game about Conan just to demo their crap for 3 hours just so I can actually get to the position of a normal raid. I really don’t care about the machismo BS criticism over it. I’m old and don’t care what you think about me. You build in a way that is against the intent of the ToS, I’ll report you because time is becoming more and more of a precision thing with each passing year. It’s that simple. Deal

I have to disagree with you here. The point of you playing on a PVP server is what exactly? To fight other players or to raid them?

If its merely fighting, PVE/C offers just that.

@erjoh

I am not logging into a game about Conan just to demo their crap for 3 hours just so I can actually get to the position of a normal raid

If its raiding…I mean, raiding has lost nearly all value now. Farming at 4x rates means in a couple hours you have all you ever need. Rare thralls? Ha, they dont exist anymore. Legendary weapons? Siptah weapons and new crafted ones make them near useless wall hangers. Are you raiding a base so that you dont have to farm stuff yourself?

Or does that mean the point of raiding is just to blow some stuff up and see what you can get? Does that mean that just simply blowing up anything could accomplish the same feeling? Would it then matter if it was a wheel base, map room, bridge, base, outpost or teleportation room?

All those things I listed are merely to cause grief to other players - but hey, thats part of the game on PVP.

@erjoh

You build in a way that is against the intent of the ToS, I’ll report you

Hence the discussion here, because what you think may be a violation, maybe to others its not. Heck each Funcom employee would likely have a different opinion on the matter too. After seeing screenshots of stuff that is resulted in people getting banned, you could report many many bases on PVP servers because it may be against the rules. In my ban, people here tried to say I was preventing others from building (which is also on the message I get when I try to log in), so I could report your base because its preventing me from building. Makes sense right?

@erjoh

time is becoming more and more of a precision thing with each passing year.

Yup, it is for everyone. If you dont find enjoyment in gaming or in PVP anymore because people build too much or play too much for your liking, maybe there is other ways to enjoy time. Of course you can ignore this too, Im not telling you what to do, but dont sh*t on people who can play more often then you can. No point in punishing those that have more free time because you have limited time to play.

[erjoh]

What, specifically, would be a PVE rule and not a PVP rule and vice versa?

I just don’t see how the two are any different outside of players’ expectations. Using the building system to harass other players, regardless of game type is still harassing players. I fail to understand why the PVP player needs to exploit the build system.

As for the actual intent of the developers in how interactions of players should go. I have yet to hear how any of types of play should be from anyone at FC. Truth be told, I think they developed this game in a bubble and threw it over three fences of online play styles just to see if it would stick. Change my mind.

[CodeMage]

@Nemisis

If its a violation of language, banning the person is hiding the problem too right?

No, it’s removing the problem. Unless you consider that undergoing surgery to remove cancer is “hiding the problem”. Then yeah, I completely agree.

@Nemisis

Welcome to online gaming…where you meet all kinds of people. Good luck ever getting people to get along.

I don’t care about people getting along. I just don’t want to play with people who think it’s okay to yell the n-word or build swastikas. You can try as hard as you want to make it more complicated, but it’s really as simple as that. And Funcom also thinks it’s as simple as that. Feel free to put it to test any time you want on the official servers where there are players like me

@Nemisis

PVP? Come on man, blow it up.

When it comes to whether the rules should be different for PVP, I don’t have a horse in that race, so I’m reluctant to offer my opinion. Personally, I would tend to agree with @erjoh about the desirability of cleaning up other people’s turds just because you own a broom, but like I said, I’ll leave that to PVP players.

@Nemisis

Ask yourself, is there a difference between spam that does nothing but prevent building (like the spider webs around bases) and open maprooms/walkways/bridges?

Yes, there is. And even Funcom recognizes that difference:

@Umborls

I like the concept of public structures on PvE servers. Just keep in mind that land claim is inherent with any building. We are forced to consider the impact of the resulting claim and the benefit of the building to the server. There is no formula for how to vet such a building, so we have to make a judgement call.

Unfortunately, the game doesn’t yet give us tools to treat the “public infrastructure” builds differently. I hope they’ll add that, but until that happens, anyone who builds public infrastracture assumes the risk of getting reported.

I don’t think that’s different in PVP, by the way. I’m convinced that if you play on a PVE(-C) server and get reported for a bridge you’re likely to be targeted by admin action, because bridges are specifically called out in the clarification post about land claim abuse. Hell, I wouldn’t even bet against being admin-wiped for a public map room if there are enough reports against you, because that would be a pretty good signal that the community on the server doesn’t consider your public map room to be a net good.

And yeah, I know, people will report that stuff on PVP servers with the express intent of getting you banned, rather than because they’re genuinely annoyed by your stuff. I already said I don’t dispute that reporting-to-win exists. But if you build stuff that breaks the rules, you don’t get to complain about the “reporting meta”. You do get to complain about the rules, but there we run into another problem:

@Nemisis

@CodeMage

In short: whether you like the rules or not is not relevant to this topic

Imagine if 10 out of every 50 players felt this way, that the current rules are garbage. Their opinions would be irrelevant too because they differ from your point of view? Remember, I mentioned above that Ive talked to nearly 20 (or 30 I cant remember what I said) people that have played with me and my clan over the last 5 years. Every single one of them laughed at the building rules.

Their opinions on the subject dont matter either? Because its different then yours?

No, their opinions on whether the rules should change are not relevant to this topic. Mine isn’t, either, but I’m not the one pushing it as something this discussion is about.

The discussion was supposed to be about whether the rules are vague, whether people are abusing the vagueness of the rules, whether people are abusing the reporting system, stuff like that. “But I don’t like the rules” is a very different topic.

FWIW, I think that “should the rules change” is a more interesting topic than yet another iteration on “reporting is the new meta because the rules are vague”. The former could lead to some interesting discussion, the latter is frankly nauseating at this point.

[CodeMage]

@erjoh

What, specifically, would be a PVE rule and not a PVP rule and vice versa?

I would also like to know. In fact, it sounds like an interesting question, so I took the liberty of opening a new topic for that, instead of starting the discussion 100+ posts deep into an existing thread.

Here it is:

Should the official server rules be different for PVP? And how?

There seems to be some sentiment that the official server TOS should be different for PVP servers, as opposed to PVE(-C). I’m not sure how popular that sentiment is, but it sounds like the discussion might be interesting. Let’s hear some concrete proposals from the PVP players.

[erjoh]

@Nemisis

Im not telling you what to do, but dont sh*t on people who can play more often then you can. No point in punishing those that have more free time because you have limited time to play.

But that’s just it…in a PVP environment, you are saying I shouldn’t punish those with free time and yet they can punish me in game? Ummm how is that remotely fair? I have real world responsibilities and because of that, I should just roll over on my belly and allow others to punish me because of that? How is that any different than P2W? If someone gives up their hourly time (which has an associated cost since they could be working) and puts it in the game to outdo another that is actually working, RL…that is P2W except FC doesn’t see any of that revenue. Yeah see this is where I stand. This idea that time should give up better advantages over any other type of play is P2W.

[Pugilist]

@Capt_insano0

In other words pay to play

No.

Pay to play without drama.

If you are willing to deal with a fluid TOS and a weaponized reporting system, no changes are required.

[darthphysicist]

The way I see it, the settings and game balance are the intention, and if people behave themselves, its perfectly capable of being the definition of the game. BUT people do not behave themselves. People do not treat each other with respect, either verbally or by respecting the play area is a shared space for others to enjoy as well. They appear here in the forums to not always view pvp as a congenial competition but a challenge to drive others off servers, for good or ill. A private server changes the balance and skews the game often with mods BUT step out of line on a private server and you won’t be on it as long as you might last on an official. People might even find that admins on officials are perhaps even more understanding and restrained than an admin on a private. I wouldnt tolerate a bad actor for a second on my servers, and would ban and kick from my discord faster than a blink with no explanation whatsoever. My server cost a fortune and I spend all my free time on Conan on my server. My tolerance is zero.

So anyway, I see no problem with officials being intended to be the intended experience, while at the same time falling short because of the players.

[XninjaPIX]

@erjoh

But that’s just it…in a PVP environment, you are saying I shouldn’t punish those with free time and yet they can punish me in game?

In life you have to put in time to get a reward. If you don’t put in time at work, you don’t get a promotion. If you don’t put in time in Conan you don’t get to raid someone that does. It is simple and fair.

@Umborls

Land claim abuse does not get a 1 month suspension for first offense

@Ulyssi this is untrue and I do realize who wrote it. I as well as many other players have been suspended for 1 month for the first offence of ‘land spam’ as Zendesk clarified in their reply about our base.

@Nemisis

PVP? Come on man, blow it

Sounds good but it they build over every brimstone node it is kinda hard to do.

@stelagel

The voice we have in here it’s been given politely!

Really? Or is it just a control method. Try explaining how to ‘D’ or ‘E’ (do bad things) your post will most likely disappear. If this forum was external there would be no control and that would be bad for us gamers too.

@CodeMage

The devs recognize that the number of private servers outstrips the number of official servers by a large margin,

A quick look on console during raiding hours at their populations. Mostly 0 population.

@darthphysicist

. Be a good neighbor.

Difficult in pvp

@erjoh

Build limits. Just stop.

I believe they also said thralls caused excessive lag which is why they got a limit but did anything change after? On a previous gen console I have experienced reduced frames/lag around nothing more than ridiculous amounts of foundation spam. Agreed though workstations are definitely part of the problem. We experimented with this some time ago and found that reducing their number definitely helped improve server performance around a base.

[Nemisis]

@CodeMage

No, it’s removing the problem.

Family sharing.

@CodeMage

Feel free to put it to test any time you want on the official servers where there are players like me

No point. I dont act like that. I dont care if others do. I dont care if you do. If I get annoyed with someone, I mute them and all the issues go away. 9 times out of 10 people like that are trolling to get a reaction. Muting them eliminates their goal.

@CodeMage

I hope they’ll add that, but until that happens, anyone who builds public infrastracture assumes the risk of getting reported.

So we agree at some level that there is differences in builds that are not base related. We both agree that there should be a different rule set for such things. There is risk, but common sense should tell people that minor things that are a convenience to the server should never be deleted or ban worthy.

@CodeMage

Hell, I wouldn’t even bet against being admin-wiped for a public map room if there are enough reports against you, because that would be a pretty good signal that the community on the server doesn’t consider your public map room to be a net good.

Surely we have to agree that there is something wrong with people to report that right? Sure, if a clan spams 100 map rooms, ok, excessive. A map room at each obelisk? Or maybe outside each POI for collecting thralls? Heck they dont like people to have multiple satellite bases to thrall from, now we cant have map rooms to teleport back home with thralls…I guess we just run across the map.

[Nemisis]

Ok, well, we disagree on stuff.

No, I dont think people should be punished in game for builds provided they arent spam. If someone spammed around your base on a PVP server, yeah Id agree that should be wiped. Or, if its around their base. But lets be honest, weve seen people get banned and wiped for building in tunnels because it prevents access to somewhere else (it was a base in the desert, east of the sinkhole.) when people can clearly go around it. That shouldnt happen

Thats the problem with the rules, and why Id be all for seperate rules for different servers

[Nemisis]

@XninjaPIX

Sounds good but it they build over every brimstone node it is kinda hard to do.

Funcom has the exact tools to solve that issue, has had for years, been told by the player base for years to do…and they simply ignore it. Make the brimstone lake a no build zone. Im not sure we would ever hear anyone complain with that.

[XninjaPIX]

Players just put a wall around it and the southern caves. I remember there being a few complaints back then when that happened. Although it wasn’t too bad when there was an alternative option available to remove the walls such as treb boulders that did a lot more damage.

[Ulyssi]

@XninjaPIX

@Ulyssi this is untrue and I do realize who wrote it. I as well as many other players have been suspended for 1 month for the first offence of ‘land spam’ as Zendesk clarified in their reply about our base.

I am the last person here you will find carrying water for Umborls. I have no idea if their statement on 30 day bans is accurate or not. I was just pointing out that according to them they have internal documentation for team members to appeal to when moderating.

@CodeMage

“But I don’t like the rules” is a very different topic.

Yeah this is all I see with “banning is the new meta” posts. Which is a shame because I, likely you, and many others might share, to varying degrees, in their actual opinions on the rules and how they interact with our established social norms within the game. “FC is fairly banning people, but I don’t like it” COULD be a valid topic for discussion, but without proper nuance, reads purely as salt.

[CodeMage]

@XninjaPIX

I believe they also said thralls caused excessive lag which is why they got a limit but did anything change after?

Ask @JJDancer. Go on, I’ll go get some popcorn.

@Nemisis

Family sharing.

Not on officials.

@Nemisis

We both agree that there should be a different rule set for such things.

I would go further and say that there should be in-game support for such things.

@Nemisis

Surely we have to agree that there is something wrong with people to report that right?

No, we don’t. There could be something wrong with the map room itself. Or its location. Or its usefulness. Or any number of other things.