Roll dodging needs fixed

Conan Exiles General Discussion Feedback
1

the light armor roll dodge is too good as it is, which is a large part of why light armor/spears are the current meta. While even after the changes the spear is still a part of why(it has exceptional range and even with the reduced damage the 1 2 heavy poke attack is still the way to go) the bigger issue once any other weapon used gets close enough to attack, the spear user can just unequip the spear and roll away to ridiculous lengths while wearing light armor.

This negates any defensive advantage medium and heavy armor have, especially heavy and makes any weapon but the spear practically useless in PvP combat.

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I’ll get punished for this, but maybe light armor should be reduced to almost 0 extra armor. Only used for the temp and stats buff. This would make it less tactical to get close and take a few “hits” when in this build, but give one the “speed” they like with it.

Or have it sheathed any 2H weapons when you roll with less than 75% stamina bar.
this will allow you to roll at full stam and still attack out of it as is now, but if you roll twice in succession, the weapon will have to be redrawn, giving that split second advantage to the other player if skilled.

3

No. I am not a fan of this. While I can see the dodge being annoying it really is the only defense for light Armor user in PVE. The trade off is that we can be 1 hit by rhinos or even other players depending on the build.

Light armor needs to be balanced.

I am on PVE-C. I do occasionlly fight other players. If they are wearing light armor and wielding a spear all the dodge rolling in the world wont help them.

I switch to my bow and hit them in the legs. Cripple is harsh against players. Its even worse because my bow damage base is 122 to 135 and on a light attack I get more damage abd bypass huge amounts of their armor. Which is already non existent.

Light armor needs the roll. Otherwise it might as well be reduced to fashion items and will really cause issues for PVE content

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4

You should not be able to roll dodge holding a pike without dropping it. I think roll dodging should force your pike / weapons to be automatically sheathed.

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5

Realism is not going to enter the game, sorry. Funcom would have to rebuild the whole combat system if we wanted it to be realistic. So any arguments that “a person shouldn’t be able to do that” aren’t going to work, or we’d have to bring in some historical martial artists to tell us how it really works - and no computer game is like that. (Also, from a realistic point of view, the spear is a superior 1-vs-1 weapon. So in this regard, the game is doing it right.)

Light armor needs a way to exist competitively in the game, and being able to dodge well is that. Take away that dodge, or take away that protection light armor provides, and you’ll just drive people towards heavy armor builds (or nudism). Funcom already nerfed dodging once by making it drain a percentage of stamina instead of a set amount, so Grit builds couldn’t dodge forever. Now you can dodge four times, or six with max Grit, and then you’re all out of stamina. That’s before you even try to poke your enemy with a stick.

Is that too good? A light armor build with max Grit doesn’t have as many stat points in Vitality, or Strength, or Encumbrance, so they’re already weaker in other aspects of combat. Dodging is the only real defense they have. Dodging also requires good timing and coordination, or you dodge out of your own melee range and have to turn around or otherwise waste time so as to get back to the fight.

Dodging is also vital in PVE. I really don’t want to learn an entirely new playstyle for PVE because some PVPers can’t handle dodgers. For PVP, there will always be one superior build over all others - and if dodging with max Grit is it in Conan Exiles, then I can accept that, because at least it takes some player skill to play effectively instead of simply dressing in the heaviest armor in the world and spam-clicking between attack buttons and healing items until the other guy drops.

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Technically then, bow is the most superior, and under powered in CE. I see you from 25-30 feet, bow to head/throat/upper chest. game over.

And spears are great in RL, if you have the right distance. The problem with spears in CE is really they need a collision dmg box at the end of the spear only. If i can close the gap, then the spear is only good for blocking (which would be awesome to have as well), or less effective (less dmg) due to force one can deliver without full thrust.
Or in general, when rolling if you get hit, damage should increase a little. If i have the skill to hit a retreating player, then i should be rewarded. +20% to armor pen would be great on that strike only.

2 Likes
7

The game doesn’t have to be uber realistic but roll dodging shouldn’t even be a thing for some weapons. It really looks goofy with pikes too. Fixing roll dodge in itself to be limited to only certain 1 handed weapons would make other weapons more competitive.

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The problem, I feel, is not dodge-rolling, but the pike. Again. It’s vitally important that we identify the exact problem before trying to fix things, or we might end up breaking more than we fix.

And the pike was already nerfed - and I don’t mean the reduced damage on the initial two hits, but the newly-implemented delay after the poke attack. When fighting multiple opponents, or an opponent that cannot be staggered, the pike has turned into a suicide weapon for the lightly armored because someone will have time to hit you before you can dodge away. If you weaken the light armor + pike combination any more, it ceases to be a viable option at all.

Maybe it’s still overpowered in 1-vs-1 PVP, but it’s no longer a universal solution in all forms of combat. I just want to avoid a “Dear game designer, rock is overpowered, paper is fine. Thanks, Scissors.” situation here. And I want to point out that whatever changes are made to dodging, or pikes, or the combination of the two, has an impact beyond PVP duels that must be accounted for if we are to come up with a solution.

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9

This does help. I am not on PC, and the basic notes only said damage was nerfed. If this is so, then yes, removing the pike as a goto for the rolly-polly fighter in light armor helps a lot.

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Yeah, the notes didn’t mention changing the pike’s attack speed, which is why I’m not sure if the new delay is intended or a bug, but I do know that it’s making my life in single-player harder because, as you may have guessed, I like to play a lightly armored pike-wielder.

And yes, I agree that the old pike was too strong and made most other weapons either situational (such as daggers against slow bosses) or obsolete, so I agree something needed to be done to it. The current version I can live with, but if it’s weakened any further… well, at least they fixed the weapon racks so that pikes don’t stretch stupidly on them anymore.

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11

I totally agree with you. like I said earlier (Suggestion for Combat of Weapons and armors),the light armor with spear is dominate in pvp right now, especially it can easily kill player wearing heavy armor, which is unfair for heavy armor.

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this isn’t about realism and 100% about gameplay balance. And the funny thing is a lot of similar arguments were made about SL meta back when that was king.

The roll dodge for light should not get you completely out of range and put you at a good headstart running distance, period. This is exactly why light armor and spear is the meta, because you can 100% stay out of the range of anyone not using the same set up. Even medium and heavy spear users are at a disadvantage. The roll dodge should take you just to the edge of spear range, so you’re still out of the way of 1-handed and other 2-handed weapons will struggle keeping you within it. It should not take you out of the battle and ready to run completely, with enough time to regen the lost stamina.

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Good, we are in agreement. I hope we’re also in agreement that all options should be at least situationally valid. As I said earlier, dodging - effective dodging - is what makes light armor playable. And as I said earlier, it already takes skill to utilize effectively, especially against other players who know what they’re doing, as opposed to stupid AI that can be fooled 100 % of the time.

Making dodge in light armor weaker will simply drive people towards heavier armor. If I can’t dodge out of the way, i’m going to take damage, and if I’m going to take damage anyway, I might just as well take as little as possible, ergo I’m going to wear Silent Legion or something.

Even AI isn’t giving me time to regenerate stamina after dodging all the time, so why would other players?

I’m sorry, but you do sound a little like a Scissors complaining about Rock.

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14

I think rolling is totally fine, light armor should have faster/longer/cheaper dodges than heavier armors, otherwise, what is the point of it? But I do agree that epic light has a bit too much armor, I mean, it has around 45% damage reduction, which is a lot. Epic medium has 63% and heavy has 75%. I think a reduction down to 35-40% would be sensible for epic light armor, and heavy should get a tiny buff, like 2-5%. The game makes it sound like it is less than half as hard to cut through some good quality silk compared to magic-imbued full plate armor made out of f*cking starmetal and black ice, which is ridiculous as hell. And sure, we must suspense realism here a bit, because otherwise, everyone would be always using full plate armor, because that is simply unparalelled in terms of protection, and basically anyone who could get their hands on it historically, did and used it, and we want some more variety even in late-game. All I´m saying is, light is too damn good at protecting the wearer as it is compared to heavy, and it is also one of the reasons almost no one is using heavy atm, at least in PvP.

As for weapon balance, here´s my two cents:

Currently, spears can be countered quite well with axe+shield. And axe+shield can also ironically be very well countered by a spear. It now mostly boils down to gear and skill, as it should be. I would say spears are no longer overpowered, they are just still a good weapon for PvP, as well as they should be. Personally, I usually run axe+shield+spear and usually use axe+shield for PvE for max damage and protection, and in PvP it depends - if my opponent is too fast, defensive, cautious etc., I still poke him with the spear from the start, but if they are rather offensive and don´t play it too safe, I will usually first try to ease them up with axe+shield and only when they flee, do I finish the job with the spear. Daggers are also fairly viable I would say, although situationally and mostly for duels. Greatswords are definitely viable and have been either always, or for a long time now anyway.
I do take a bit of an issue with how little (or if at all?) they buffed the last 2 heavy attacks of the spear - they made it sound like the damage that gets subtracted from the first 2 hits which are mostly used in PvP and are sort of cheap shots, would get added to the last 2 hits to nerf spear for PvP, which was very much needed, but also not nerf it too much for PvE, because that was not really necessary. And they seem to have nerfed the former without buffing the latter, hence I now almost exclusively use other weapons for PvE, because the spear is quite meh dps-wise now, even if you do the full combo.

15

with the spear changes we can see that the issue has less to do with the spear and more to do with the dodging itself. It’s too easy to use “effective dodging” in light armor, period. When mediocre and bad players have obvious advantages over good or even skilled players in medium and heavy armor, even with the same weapon, that shows it’s unbalanced. Period.

I understand this is your preferred playstyle so you feel the need to defend it because you’re afraid you’ll have to chase a new meta, but it’s becoming glaringly obvious that the issues is less with the spear and more with the armor set up and dodge roll. It’s entirely too easy to poke poke, dodge out of range till stamina replenishes, then repeat.

16

I don’t play PVP, so there’s no “chasing a new meta” for me - just a style that is the best, and that’s the style I’m using. After the recent updates I’ve swapped my pike for a sword in many situations. Still wearing light armor, though - even though it’s mostly so that I can carry more stuff.

What worries me is that some PVPers don’t entirely understand the PVE environment and how balance changes in PVP would affect PVE. Similarly, I don’t understand PVP, so please explain to me this glaringly obvious fact like I’m stupid:

While the lightly armored guy moves in, stabs a couple of times and then dodge-rolls out, why isn’t the heavy-armor guy hitting back? Why don’t they use a heavy attack that makes you immune to stagger? Or a katana’s rush attack? Or block with a shield and then attack? Or dodge forward and then attack? What is it that gives the light armor guy the initiative?

I mean, if the spear and its reach isn’t the problem, then we can assume that both sides have equal opportunities to attack each other the moment one enters melee range.

2 Likes
18

ah, “Mah PvE”, got it. Game is totes geared toward PvE :rofl::roll_eyes:

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I was asking a serious question: how does PVP work in such a fashion that a heavily armored player cannot attack a lightly armored player?

I’m not a PVPer, I said as much. But I’m honestly trying to understand your side of the argument. If it turns out you’re right, and you can explain it to me convincingly enough, it can help me accept that the spear+dodge+whatever causes you grief needs to be changed. Mocking me because of my chosen playstyle will not help your cause.

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20

They can attack. The situation is that heavy armor is just that. It is heavy and offers a lot of mitigation.

Medium is highly prefered by many and is in the middle.

Light armor offers the most mobility.

The weight of the arnor also impedes movement speed.

It used to be that heavy armor and Spear was the Meta. Then people needed yo defeat that and discovered that to beat that Meta you could use light armor and get a great distance away from the heavy armored foe.

However. If the light armored person does take a hit. They are dead.

You only get three dodge rolls before stam is gone from most build.

Thw heavy arnor folk need to Sprint less. Wait for the approach and them push forward.

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21

I agree.actually I dont need new contents or any bigger map before they make a fair Conan world especially for pvp that I think it will bring back more players.